[genjamon]

Ok, guys.  I came into a little windfall recently, not likely to be repeated anytime soon.  I'd like to use this $3K to do something strategic with my system that will kind of lock me into a system for a while. 

I sprung for the NC400 monoblocks early in the summer and am pretty happy with them, but know there's more potential with them through tweaking and other system choices.  I'm never going to be able to invest in truly high end price level stuff, so I'm kind of thinking I need to try and build or tweak my system around them.  As for their implementation, I've done the bypass of speaker binding posts using chassis holes, grommets, and using the binding posts as clamps for the cabling.  Otherwise, I haven't done any tweaking, and I know they are sensitive and could probably respond to tweaks.

The rest of the system is composed of Mac Mini (no special power cords or power management), DB Audio Tranquility SE DAC with their SE USB cable (Signal Cable digital PC), Horn Shoppe's The Truth buffer pre (with photocell volume control, fixed PC), and stock Tekton Lore speakers.  I have an AV123 MWF-15 subwoofer using a Behringer unit for subwoofer EQ.  The Ncores are using basic Signal Cable PC's right now.  Interconnects are a mixture of Morrow MA2's and Sweet Spot Reveal coppers.  Speaker cables are a shotgun run of Clear Day silver cables.  The preamp and amps are direct into a power strip to the wall, while the other components are in a modest power conditioner.  I have a pretty good combination of absorption and diffusion in the room, but there could perhaps be some additional or some more experimentation there.

I really have liked the Lores, but I feel like I've been battling a bit of brightness with them.  Others have commented on the value of upgrading crossover parts in taming this, and the manufacturer has offered that changing the value of one of the caps would also scrub a little upper midrange energy to help if needed.  Other than that, details and dynamics are great in my room, but they do need just that last bit of help in the deep bass region.

I know there are a number of potential weak links in all that.  Things I'm interested in, in no particular order of priority:

1) High end tube preamp, or maybe the Wyred STP-SE - would like to try balanced to see how that might also improve things with the Ncores.  I don't need any gain here - in fact gain could become problematic in terms of volume control sensitivity given the 98dB Lores.

2) Crossover upgrade for the Lore. (~$600 for top of the line caps, but probably a few hundred for something more mid-level in caps)

3) Power cables upgrades - for Ncores, for Mac Mini, for Tranquility

4) Power conditioning - specifically a Pi Audio Uberbuss (a little over $1K)

5) Servo sub like Rhythmik or GR Research

6) Different speakers - I liked what I heard from Odyssey Lorelei and Fritz Carbon 7's at RMAF a couple years ago - based on the similar drivers.  Fritz also has some other new designs that sound interesting.  I also am curious about upgrading to the Tekton Pendragon, which might nullify the need for a subwoofer.  These thoughts are more about further exploring my tastes.

7) Ncore tweaks - upgraded internal cabling, upgraded fuses, etc...

Ok, I know not all of these cost the same, and I could accomplish several with $3k.  However, some of them would on their own take every bit of that $3k, or almost all of it, leaving only room for some small stuff.  Also, some of these things don't offer much opportunity for resale, while others I could try out for a while and then recoup most of the investment if I want to go somewhere else down the line.  Also, replacing speakers or preamp, or even DAC, would allow the budget to expand a bit through resale of those items.

It's a complicated request, but I'm just curious what you guys might  think about in terms of priorities here to get the most out of the Ncores. 

I'm not a big classical buff, but rather am more into modern independent music, classic rock, blues, creative pop music, stuff.  Examples include David Byrne, Ani Difranco, Fleet Foxes, Iron and Wine, Soul Coughing, occasional Led Zeppelin, Ween, Fiona Apple, and on...  Not all of it is all that well recorded, but I do like to appreciate a well recorded album while also being able to rock out when required.

[roscoeiii]

Personally, I would put all the money on speakers.

I listen to much of the same material you do-Ween, Fleet Foxes, David Bryne, LZ, Iron and Wine (in fact I saw both Iron & Wine and David Bryne live this week!).

I was also in the high efficiency speaker world for a while (incl the Soul Superfly), but am glad that I made the switch to my Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen IIs. The sense of scale and impact is in a different league. I no longer feel that it is enough to just add some subs to a monitor or high efficiency speaker.

IME you are always going to get the best bang for your buck with speakers, and especially since I don't see any glaring weaknesses in your upstream chain. I have read the raves of the Lores, but they seem the weak link here.

The Truth might be the other piece of equipment that I might play with. But I think #1= speakers, #2 = speakers #3= everything else.

[HT cOz]

You have a great system started.  Many people would be very happy with your current selections.  I think the biggest bang for your buck is going to be to focus on your room.  Your speaker/room interface is a huge factor in the performance of your audio system.  I can't imagine my room with no treatments.  Whatever you do, please don't go spending tons of money on power cables.  I have a gallery called OCC Power.  This is the type of project that you can do yourself with great results. 

My 2 cents
Robert

[genjamon]

Thanks, Roscoeiii.  High efficiency allows one to get more bang for the buck in amplification, which has been a major attraction as I have slowly built my system over time with savings here and there.  I might be getting to the point where I can let go of that priority, and now the Ncore allow me to think way outside the boundaries of what I have previously.  Yet, would that then mean I would need a preamp with gain?  If I throw all my money into speakers, I wouldn't want to run into problems there that dictate significant investment in preamplification, which I would then have no funding for.

[genjamon]

Thanks, Robert.  You're right, the system really does sound good.  I'm not that anxious to really upend everything in it.  It does seem like many others have found that all the little tweaks do add up, and when you find a system you want to settle into, it's time to get to tweaking for that last Nth of performance and to make things "just right" for your tastes.  I'll check out your gallery on the PC front.

[roscoeiii]

Thanks, Roscoeiii.  High efficiency allows one to get more bang for the buck in amplification, which has been a major attraction as I have slowly built my system over time with savings here and there.  I might be getting to the point where I can let go of that priority, and now the Ncore allow me to think way outside the boundaries of what I have previously.  Yet, would that then mean I would need a preamp with gain?  If I throw all my money into speakers, I wouldn't want to run into problems there that dictate significant investment in preamplification, which I would then have no funding for.

With the NCores, you now have a very different sort of bang-for-the-buck amplification. There is little that the ncores won't be able to drive well. Don't know the Truth pre-amp except by reputation, but its reputation is a good one. But I think I would still go all-in for speakers. At a $3k price point you are looking at some pretty kick-ass options out there. Then later on, as funds permit, you could play around with a preamp. There are some nice preamp options in the used market for not much more than what you could likely get for your Truth pre.

I have come around to the idea that the most important parts of your system are where electrical signals are being converted to mechanical energy and vice versa. Since you don't have a vinyl set-up (mechanical to electrical interface) I'd stick to the speaker (electrical-to-mechanical).

[jtwrace]

This is how I recommend you spend your money if you are looking for better sound.

Purchase and learn how to use measurement equipment

The above will dictate how much room treatment you will require

Speakers.  More to be gained here once you take the above out of the equation.  Keep in mind that different speakers can require different room treatments. 

[dburna]

Not to pile on to the "speaker train," but I'm going to pile on the speaker train......   

I have been on a parallel path.  Genjamon, perhaps we should talk.  I have 96dB speakers and NCores.  Attenuation through Pure Music right now, so direct path from DAC -> NCores.....and it sounds pretty darned good.  Seems like a waste of power sometimes, but you can never have enough headroom, eh?  I have done some experimentation with passive/attenuators/buffers so far, and between that and having talked to folks about other alternatives, here's some things I have gleaned (my opinions only):

1. It's going to take a good, good preamp to stand up to the NCores without giving up transparency.  Such a solution, even if you go used, probably won't come cheap.  And to what end?  It sounds like you don't need gain, only attenuation.  Yes, you get some "body" back into the sound, but do you lose too much resolution/clarity in the bargain.  And that's where it will take a good (pricey?) preamp to fit the bill.
2. Not all attenuation solutions will be a good match.....but you knew that. It's about synergy.  I haven't heard one, but The Truth is supposed to be darned good.  Again, you might not find significantly better without spending significantly more coin.  Might make sense to stick with what you have......unless you want to sell it to me!   
3. Integrating speakers and subs can be hard, much harder (and time-consuming) than it seems on paper.  Might be better to go with a full-range speaker and let the designer sweat the details.
4. I love the suggestion about room treatments, it's always a great (best?) place to start.  Don't know about you, though, but I'm married, and I find it hard to reconcile room treatments and WAF.  WAF always wins out.  So while I want to get into room treatments, reality tells me it's not going to happen.  Your mileage may differ (significantly), in which case more power to you.
5. You didn't mention the size of your room or placement issues.  Do you have latitude to place speakers out into the room?  Or do you have to have speakers closer to room boundaries?

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest something.  Bear in mind I haven't heard these speakers, but they might fit your needs......and several people I know have commented very favorably on them.  Have you looked into the Von Schweikert VR-22's (new) and VR-33's (used)?  They can be placed against walls which reinforces low-end response (plus less obtrusive/fussy in terms of room placement).  They are not 98dB, but they are reasonably efficient -- NCores will have plenty of power to spare.  I really have enjoyed some of the Verity speakers (very refined), but haven't specifically heard the lowest models in their product line, so that may work and it may not.  I think Verity's would only work on a used basis for your budget.

Just a suggestion, but that keeps you under the $3k budget.  Other than that, I can only echo what others have said -- the rest of your system is first-rate.

Best, -dB

[roscoeiii]

Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen IIs are what I have ended up with. And they can certainly be found used within your budget with a little patience. Though shipping will not be cheap. dburna does make a very good point about your room size and  placement constraints.

[genjamon]

Wow, seems like a consensus is emerging, and really not what I was expecting.  I thought you guys would point toward a quality tube preamp, or maybe say I've gotta take my cabling to the next level.  I've really liked these Lores, have had them for almost a year and a half now.  They definitely took me to a new level, and I've been really interested in upgrading the crossovers before moving on to new things.  That said, you know, sometimes it's just time for something new.  I don't think I could get rid of them without giving upgraded crossovers a shot, but I could certainly afford to try something new with this money, especially if it has an in-home trial option.

As for room treatments, I have a reasonable amount.  GIK panels at first reflections, one center rear wall, GIK diffusors between speakers and center absorption.  GIK Tri-corner traps in the front corners.  There's one rear corner that is open right now, and the other rear corner is mostly openings to other rooms, no way to treat it really.  I have had diffusing on the rear wall in the past, but not currently.  Two couches on side walls as well. 

I'm a bachelor and live alone.  It's a 15X22 living room with 8 ft ceilings, pretty basic.  Speakers are about 3 ft into the room, and about 2 ft from side walls. Substantial opening to dining room at right rear, and hallway entry at rear, so it's not completely enclosed.  TV room is a den in the back of the house, so I'm not competing with that use, although I have had the TV incorporated in the past and might again in the future.  While I don't really have a WAF issue, I don't want it to completely take over the room.  I do have a girlfriend who is tolerant but not limitless in her humor about my system, and I intend to deal with WAF eventually.



I've looked at VR-33's online briefly in the past, but never heard them.  Like I said, I was kind of interested in the Carbon 7's or the Lorelei's, both solidly in my price range, and could even provide room to spare for some of the other stuff. 

Or maybe I should just leave well enough alone and be happy with what I have and use the money to spoil my girlfriend... 

Are you sure I don't need to overhaul my power with a dedicated 20A line or something...?   

[roscoeiii]

The Carbon 7s do sound great, they were a revelation at the last AK Fest that Fritz attended. Considering those couches on the sides of your room, I would also think about standmount speakers that would have all the drivers above couch level.

Other standmount speakers that have blown me away are SP Tech Minis (bought a pair, and am reluctant to let go of them despite them being replaced by my VR-4s), Vapor Auroras (good god the bass output of these!), and Harbeths.

[genjamon]

Good thoughts.  As for the couches, those are flexible. In the past when the tv was in this room I had one of them as the main seating and nothing along those walls.

[dburna]

If you are looking at monitor speakers, Roscoeiii gave you a great short list.  In fact, I wouldn't wander too far from this list if I were you, unless you want something floostanding.

-dB

[morganc]

I agree with Roscoe, get better speakers!   If I were you, I would take the $3000, sell the Lores, the Sub, and beg, borrow or steal the extra 1000 and get the GR Super V's or maybe the new X-Otica coming out.  They are not sensitive to room interactions if you can give them 3 feet off of the wall.....

[jtwrace]

They are not sensitive to room interactions if you can give them 3 feet off of the wall.....

That's not true. 

[morganc]

Ok....maybe I should have said "less sensitive".

[jtwrace]

Ok....maybe I should have said "less sensitive".

Ya think? 

The bottom line is that the room in still a factor (as always) and measuring and room treatments will be an absolute if you want it optimized.  Personally, I can't stand untreated non-engineered rooms anymore.  Pretty much any person that has lived with it will feel the same.

[gstew]

Another viewpoint...

The improvement I got in my system's sound when I installed a PS Audio P-10 power regenerator a couple of days ago was large and very enlightening... for me, it turned my setup with the NCore amps from edgy struggle to excited enjoyment... and I expect the sound to improve as the P-10 and NCore amps continue to break-in.

About 20 years ago, I heard a similarly-large improvement in my system's sound when I installed some dedicated AC lines... I've always said that the improvement I got from that was like doubling the cost of the equipment in my system.

That dedicated line was easy to do at that house, difficult to do at this one, hence the regenerator as an AC power improvement alternative.

My suggestion is to budget at least a part of your windfall to some significant power improvements. The P-10 is great (and I got it with a likely not to dissimilar windfall), used they are about $3k, a used P5 can be had for about $2k, and I've seen one used P-3 for $1500. If you can get a dedicated line installed fairly inexpensively, you might consider both that and a used P-3 (The dedicated line cost all depends on at least the location of your breaker panel, how and where the lines need to travel, the current state of your AC power panels/wires/outlets/configuration, and the cost at which you can find in an experienced electrician nearby).

If you do something in this realm, not only will it likely make a significant improvement in your existing setup, but it will reset the baseline higher for any future upgrades you make. For me, the neatest thing is that my weekday-evenings good-quality listening window and weekend-evenings great-quality listening windows have been combined into a pretty-much-all-the-time even better quality listening window. WooHoo!!!!

And in my case, one key improvement of the P-10 was eliminating a sense of over-emphasis in the highs and upper mids with the NCores and turning it into a wealth of detail, texture, and sense of ambient space, sorta like the brightness thing you've been dealing with. I didn't get that as an improvement when I did the dedicated lines as that wasn't an issue with that system, but both that and the P-10 also provided greatly improved detailing, dynamics, bass definition, power, and extension, and overall musicality and tunefulness.

While not as sexy as some new gear or speakers, something in this realm would be a great across-the-board upgrade for the future.

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. I like jtwrace's suggestion of test equipment to better engineer your room... but possibly you can likely beg/borrow/rent that?

[genjamon]

Yes, the floorstander vs. monitor question is very real.  I have the space and like the concept of floorstanders due to the ability to go fullrange.  The Lores do that for the most part, but just need a little support at the very bottom end. 

I appreciate the comments about measuring and engineering my room.  I have a mic that I have used to measure and calibrate the Behringer EQ for integrating the subwoofer, and that led to a very big improvement in integration at bass frequencies.  At the same time, I'm not sure how much more "engineering" I'm prepared to do with the room.  I guess I'm not sure what exactly would be included under that umbrella term of "engineering", but it sounds quite substantial.  I'm not really interested in rebuilding aspects of the room itself, but appropriate and aesthetically pleasing room treatments are alright.

It's interesting there's so much support for Von Schweikert speakers as an alternative.  I need to research them more.  I'll be asking around in the Von Schweikert circles about that.

And I'm glad someone finally spoke up about the power issue.  It does seem like the kind of thing that might benefit all components in the system.  Danny Richie certainly weighed in strongly for care in supplying power for the Ncores.

Finally, I have lusted after the Super V's, servo subs, and open baffle bass in general, so I appreciate that suggestion.  I'm just not that DIY inclined at this point, and I'm not sure I have anyone local I would trust to build them for me.  I think there were some V2's used for sale in the trading post recently, though.

This is really a lot of food for thought, guys, and I really appreciate all the good natured suggestions and discussion.  I'm not going to move immediately on anything, as I clearly have a lot more to think about.  Feel free to continue with the suggestions.

[morganc]

I will also second the power conditioning and I would highly recommend the PI Audio Buss series.   Many here on AC sold their uber expensive power conditioners, pocketed some coin, and upgraded by ordering a Buss.   Highly recommended.