[doug s.]

"snipping service"   

i used to use esnipe; now i use gixen - it is free; you can pay a small yearly fee for a mirrored site and extra features.  i have used the free service for a long time, w/no issues.

http://www.gixen.com/index.php

doug s.

[neobop]

I came across this -

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-ariston-rd11s-w-grace-707-tonearm-poor-man-s-lp-12-2012-08-21-analog-17602-lancaster-pa

[Lyndon]

Doug,
You know I was just yanking your chain.

I'll have to try that gixen.  After using esnipe for years, it has failed me, in a sense, twice in the past month. 

[jarcher]

Just worked out a deal outside of ebay w/ ebayer for CJ Sonagraphe SG3 w/ Grado Black @ $250 + shipping (basically a SOTA Comet).  Thought about the VPi 19 JR but as asking is now above $320 and seems doubtful it's going to be so much better than the CJ.  Maybe the VPI arm is better than Sota (?) CJ arm, I don't know.

In any case, thanks to all for the ebay snipping tips - gonna go w/ Gixen next time. Still probably pick up a Kenwood "marble" base if I can score one under $100 delivered.

Please keep the conversation rolling though as I'm guessing that some day I may be coming back here for more TT suggestions.

P.s. Went to see a Dual 1019 the other day - and despite being in decent condition w/ an old low end Shure, it wasn't for me.  Perhaps unfairly it just seemed cheap like the kind you'd find in a college listening library.

[doug s.]

ok - now that you got your turntable for your second rig, pick up a vintage empire for your main rig - improve the sound and pocket the savings all in one move!   

doug s.

[BaMorin]

Just worked out a deal outside of ebay w/ ebayer for CJ Sonagraphe SG3 w/ Grado Black @ $250 + shipping (basically a SOTA Comet).  Thought about the VPi 19 JR but as asking is now above $320 and seems doubtful it's going to be so much better than the CJ.  Maybe the VPI arm is better than Sota (?) CJ arm, I don't know.

In any case, thanks to all for the ebay snipping tips - gonna go w/ Gixen next time. Still probably pick up a Kenwood "marble" base if I can score one under $100 delivered.

Please keep the conversation rolling though as I'm guessing that some day I may be coming back here for more TT suggestions.

P.s. Went to see a Dual 1019 the other day - and despite being in decent condition w/ an old low end Shure, it wasn't for me.  Perhaps unfairly it just seemed cheap like the kind you'd find in a college listening library.

The Sonographe is a decent enough table. It has potential of some minor modifications to it to greatly improve its performance. If it has the stock LMF arm ( a jelco based sumiko/mission) the Grado isn't going to care much for it sonically ( >>~~~> my personal opinion <~~~<<). basic tuning of the suspension is pretty straight forward with the adjustments done from the top of the plinth.  One major thing you need to check is the base of the subplatter spindle and the 3/8" ball it rotates on. The main well sleeve/bearing assembly were stated as not needing any lube......horse-hockey. The bearing ball will probably have lots of wear spots on it, along with the end of the spindle. A new ball, proper polish of the spindle end and shaft and some 0-20 mobil-1 will cure a lot of what ails it.

[jarcher]

These tips are helpful - thanks! 

I'm pretty sure it has the stock arm on it - guy said he was the original owner & doesn't seem like he's done anything on it. Is the sotkc arm any good & do these have replaceable arms?

Having briefly tried a Grado Gold, I don't think I'm gonna be wowed by a Grado Black.  It's to bad as the Gold could do magic, but was just too warm and slow for me.  Will probably try this thing out w/ a Sumiko Pearl I have left over.  May get a second hand Ortofon 2M BLUE.

There's really not a lot of information out there on the Sonographe SG3.  Took a chance as I kinda liked the aesthetic & figured I was getting something like a SOTA comet on the cheap - though I recognize that a new Comet @ $1300 probably has other better things going for it - such as a better tonearm (?). 

Seems some people have said that the quality control wasn't always that great on these and because of the heavy platter and the way thing are suspended, etc, if things were out of wack from the factory you could have kinda teeter/tottering platter.  But then again - just because a few out of a production run might have these issues doesn't mean that all or even most will........

Will know condition when it arrives some time next week, but if I were to replace the bearing ball as you suggest, where to get such a thing?  Ask SOTA?

[jarcher]

Thanks all for the Gixen recommendation - just used it to snag a Sansui 2000A receiver.  Wanted a 5000A/X like I used to have but seems these days that a lot of vintage stuff is just getting too pricey, particularly for more "top of the line" models. 

Somebody else was trying to jump in the last few seconds & be a spoiler as usual for that $1 extra. That Gixen actually worked better is I think a strong endorsement.  Love the list format as well.

Now - can't help myself - but think I'd still like a Pioneer or Kenwood as a third & final "fun" deck.  Anybody care to opine about the a Kenwood KD500 vs a Pioneeer PL500? Both direct drive, though the Kenwood has the heavy synthetic marble base & seems to command a higher price. The budget now shrinking to $100 - $200, hence these mid-range tables.

[BaMorin]

These tips are helpful - thanks! 

I'm pretty sure it has the stock arm on it - guy said he was the original owner & doesn't seem like he's done anything on it. Is the sotkc arm any good & do these have replaceable arms?

Having briefly tried a Grado Gold, I don't think I'm gonna be wowed by a Grado Black.  It's to bad as the Gold could do magic, but was just too warm and slow for me.  Will probably try this thing out w/ a Sumiko Pearl I have left over.  May get a second hand Ortofon 2M BLUE.

There's really not a lot of information out there on the Sonographe SG3.  Took a chance as I kinda liked the aesthetic & figured I was getting something like a SOTA comet on the cheap - though I recognize that a new Comet @ $1300 probably has other better things going for it - such as a better tonearm (?). 

Seems some people have said that the quality control wasn't always that great on these and because of the heavy platter and the way thing are suspended, etc, if things were out of wack from the factory you could have kinda teeter/tottering platter.  But then again - just because a few out of a production run might have these issues doesn't mean that all or even most will........

Will know condition when it arrives some time next week, but if I were to replace the bearing ball as you suggest, where to get such a thing?  Ask SOTA?

SOTA won't answer any questions about the SG-3.  There were three different variations on the SG-3 as well.  The suspension tuning is best done with the suspension outside the plinth. (if you change arms) The subchassis has a built in counter weight to help off-set the arm mass. Changing the arm with one that is a few oz heavier or lighter can make tuning a little problematic.....ie teeter-totter unless the counter balance weight is changed in mass as well.  A 3/8" ball is easy to source.

[J-Pak]

ok - now that you got your turntable for your second rig, pick up a vintage empire for your main rig - improve the sound and pocket the savings all in one move!   

doug s.

I'd love to hear a 208. Unfortunately whenever I see them for sale they are around $800.

[jarcher]

The subchassis has a built in counter weight to help off-set the arm mass. Changing the arm with one that is a few oz heavier or lighter can make tuning a little problematic.....ie teeter-totter unless the counter balance weight is changed in mass as well.  A 3/8" ball is easy to source.

Sounds like it's best not to change the arm.......

Sorry for the ignorance: where would you source a 3/8" ball?  Not something I'm usually shopping for...........

[doug s.]

I'd love to hear a 208. Unfortunately whenever I see them for sale they are around $800.

not sure where you are looking, but unless modded, the ones i see typically sell in the $250-$500 range...

typical example, sold at $349:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110926887711


this one didn't sell at "b.i.n." $499:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200807665435


this one, w/o arm may have sold off ebay; not sure; no bids at $245:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120960730925


this one closes in <1 hour; no arm or base, but has been powder-coated; no bids yet at $275:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200810290812



doug s.

[BaMorin]

Sounds like it's best not to change the arm.......

Sorry for the ignorance: where would you source a 3/8" ball?  Not something I'm usually shopping for...........

It's not really a daunting task. Usually different arms require you to manufacture a different arm board if the mounting pattern and distance is
significantly different. Bearing balls of various sizes can be found on the web or aution site. Winsted bearings makes M50 balls fairly reasonable.

[J-Pak]

not sure where you are looking, but unless modded, the ones i see typically sell in the $250-$500 range...

My mistake, I guess the ones I'd see pop up were refurbished ones on Audiogon. I will keep an eye out on Ebay from now on 

[doug s.]

My mistake, I guess the ones I'd see pop up were refurbished ones on Audiogon. I will keep an eye out on Ebay from now on 

well...  on absolute terms, $800 is still worth it for a wintage un-refurb'd empire, considering you won't find anything new as good for $800, imo.  but, why spend the money when they sell for less?   

but, if you are referencing something like this, for $800 on agon, (see below), i'd say it's a steal.  even if this arm is not your preference, you could sell it and put the arm of your choice on it.  i'd put this up against the vpi classic any day, considering the vpi classic was designed based on the empire anyway...

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-empire-208-reconditioned-w-sme-3009-s2-cardas-rewired-2012-08-31-analog-02420-lexington-ma


doug s.

[jarcher]

So in case anyone's still interested, the two TT's arrived - Kenwood KD3055 & Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 & have set up both. 

I think the CJ sounds better than the Kenwood, though it might be that the cartridge (Grado Black) on the CJ is a bit better than the Sumiko Pearl I have mounted on the Kenwood, but I doubt it.  Both cartridges are in a similar league. 

I think among other things the SG3 has the better sumiko-made arm & the delrin platter along w/ the suspension helps as well. In any case, it's able to do the deep, tight & satisfying bass along with the deeper background and details that a better table can do.  For $250 it seems to be a good buy for anyone looking to get into vinyl.

The Kenwood "synthetic marble" base doesn't look as nice as one would think.  Sorta like a contractor-grade kitchen counter.  And the auto cue / run feature is kinda flaky.  Still at $75 I'm not complaining too much. It's a "fun-grade" table only - and the auto-return is nice.  I wish more "high-end" tables were willing to incorporate something like that.  The Kenwoods is purely mechanical, so it shouldn't "mess up" the sound. Sometimes less really just is less.........

Next up, hunting down a Pioneer PL518 DD table in the $100 - $200 range, and them I'm done (hopefully).  No good reason for choosing this model other than looks.

[BaMorin]

Replace that black stylus on the Grado with an 8MZ stylus...........you'll get more than twice the music.

[jarcher]

Thanks for the tip - literally!  Had a Grado Gold, but sounds like this 8MZ stylus has just the additional detail I was looking for.......

Trying to close a local deal on a Pioneer PL 518 in rarer black combination & though the seller says he's ready, won't give up phone # or address to close the deal despite repeated requests.  So frustrating when sellers make it harder on everyone than they need to.  My gripe for the day....   

[doug s.]

jarcher, i must thank you for pointing me in the direction of an empire you found on our local craigslist in your search for wintage turntables.  why you didn't jump all over this yourself is beyond me, as it is a killer deck that competes way above its price.  equipped nicely w/a grounded "dust bug", a grado green cartridge, and new motor grommets.

i know - you said you don't like its appearance; well i can't understand that either; i guess there's no accounting for taste - this is a thing of beauty!     i jumped on it immediately, as my son said he knew someone looking for a good turntable <$500.  my daughter is now hoping he backs out of buying it; she loves its looks and wants to buy it for her boyfriend.  me, i feel like i shouldn't have said anything to anyone and just bought it and kept it!   

the seller cued up a record on it before i took it away, and even w/its grado green cartridge, it was making magic noises.   thanks again!!! 


doug s.

[jarcher]

Your most welcome & glad to see a fellow AC got it - it was being sold at almost a give away price.  I do kinda like the industrial look, re-thinking this somewhat.  But lately I'm going for a late 70's / early 80's look.  Today I actually bought another turntable, a rare-ish black PL518 Pioneer.  Very doubtful that it is of the quality of the Empire, but it does keep time well and I just like the cool strobe ring / light. 

This - my fourth - I pray - will be my last turntable for some time.  As cheap as they can be, this is getting bit ridiculous.  The guy who sold it to me had at least 3 TT's of that era as well & felt he had to move some out.



The headshell is off a kenwood as I haven't had time to yet mount a cartridge on the original pioneer headshell.