Dedicated Power Line Recommendations - REPRISE!

audiodave33 · « **Reply #60 on:** 3 Sep 2012, 11:11 pm »

Another way of looking at the price of the R1 (or for that matter any piece of audio equipment or tweek) is the increase in joy you get from listening compared to the cost. There are probably very few, if any, audiophile grade things that even remotely compares to their standard counterpart. That being said I do believe a lot of audiophile equipment and tweeks are over priced.

jarcher · « **Reply #61 on:** 6 Sep 2012, 02:10 am »

Alright folks, this is what I'm going to be doing in case anyone has any last comments:

Wiring:
(4) 10AWG/3 RMB romex lines

Gonna forgo the metal conduit + metal receptacle box.

Breaker:
(4) 20A Dsquare

Receptacle:
(2) Oyaide R1 for living room
(2) Shunyata SR1 for basement home theater

Hook up (sorry non-technical term):

(1) Dedicated line for each receptacle. Use black for hot, white for neutral, red for ground. I guess the bare will just be capped off at each end.

(2) Keep length of lines the same from each receptacle at each outlet location.

(3) Keep all HT / Audio dedicated lines on the same phase at load center. Make sure dirty stuff like AC / refrigerator / etc are on another phase.

(4) Power amps direct connection to one duplex receptacle.

(5) All others components on the second circuit / receptacle via Furman DM 15 for home theater basement, and Furman PST-8D & Wireworld Matrix for living room.

Unfortunately isolation transformer products are out of my budget at the moment.

Thanks for all the comments / advice, and if you have any parting ones for me here, thanks also.

srb · « **Reply #62 on:** 6 Sep 2012, 02:21 am »

Quote from: jarcher on 6 Sep 2012, 02:10 am

(3) Keep all HT / Audio dedicated lines on the same phase at load center. Make sure dirty stuff like AC / refrigerator / etc are on another phase.

While the refrigerator and other 120V appliance circuits will connect to one side ("phase") of the panel, the "dirty" A/C and other 240V circuits will connect to both sides. Nothing you can do about that.

Steve

jarcher · « **Reply #63 on:** 6 Sep 2012, 02:56 am »

Doh! Well I guess I can still could / should keep the dedicated lines all on the same phase & at least have the refrigerator and any other potentially noisy 120 appliances on another phase...........or does this really matter in the end?

cheap-Jack · « **Reply #64 on:** 24 Sep 2012, 08:36 am »

Hi.

Quote from: jarcher on 6 Sep 2012, 02:56 am

..at least have the refrigerator and any other potentially noisy 120 appliances on another phase...........or does this really matter in the end?

Ideally yes. But it'd appear to me too big a deal unless you don't mind to drop a bundle to rewire the powerlines exclusively for the frig, washer & dryer etc etc which are all internally digitally controlled - emitting RFI to foil up the powerline.

My cost saving yet very efficient way is to add a RFI suppressor ring to the power cord of EACH & every electrical appliance as above mentioned, plus of course, PC, flat panel TV, etc etc. Such RFI ring suppressors are available dirt cheap from any electronic parts shops.

Even with my 125V/250V dedicated powerlines powering my audios, I still add similar RFI ring suppressors to EACH & every power cord of my digital players, e.g. CD-audio player, DVD-audio player & my newly acquired Blu-ray - stereo analogue converter (HDMI - RCA stereo audio).

This will effectively kill most, if not all, RFI contamination from the powerlines into our audios.

BUT, but still we need to worry about airborne RFI emittted from any digital equipment close by.

c-J

mikeeastman · « **Reply #65 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 04:34 pm »

I'm about to run dedicated circuits for my system and had a few questions, first a comment for Dave about using two ground rods, in solar systems in some situations we have to use more than one grounding rod the rods have to be tied together because if a lightning strike hit the ground one rod will be closer to the strike and the charge will run from closes rod through all the equipment to the other rod frying all the equipment. Now my questions, I will have 5 amps , 3- GR Research sevo amps ( 1 in each speaker and 1 in sub ) and 2 Ncores, can I put all 5 on same 30 amp circuit or should I run 2 circuits? I'm running cryoed 8-2 w/gr romex ,30' runs also sub panel parts and breakers will be croyed. my only source that runs on A/C will be my dac, everything else is battery powered, should dac be on its own circuit? Would it help to run ground from sub panel straight to ground rod instead of to main ground bar? I'm hard wiring all A/C equipment, no plugs or receptacles, except for the sevo amps for right now, don't want to mess with with new super 7s. I will be working with Dave at PI audio for buss that will work with my system as I'm off the grid and my power is from an inverter, which is somewhat different power than mains power. Any suggestion will be appreciated.

Mike

Speedskater · « **Reply #66 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 04:59 pm »

Ground rods are for safety during thunder & lightning storms!
All ground rods need to be connected together and only connected to your AC power system at the system service entrance.
Ground rods stand about as much chance of making your audio signal poorer as they do for making it better.

Two recent PowerPoint seminars.

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/InfoComm-PowerSystems2012.pdf
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/InfoComm-Grounding2012.pdf

Speedskater · « **Reply #67 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 05:33 pm »

Grounding Myths

From Henry W. Ott's big new book "Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering"

3.1.7 Grounding Myths

More myths exist relating to the field of grounding than any other area of electrical engineering. The more common of these are as follows:

1.   The earth is a low-impedance path for ground current. False, the impedance of the earth is orders of magnitude greater than the impedance of a copper conductor.
2.   The earth is an equipotential. False, this is clearly not true by the result of (1 above).
3.   The impedance of a conductor is determined by its resistance. False, what happened to the concept of inductive reactance?
4.   To operate with low noise, a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground. False, because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection. As a mater of fact, an earth ground is more likely to be the cause of noise problem. More electronic system noise problems are resolved by removing (or isolating) a circuit from earth ground that by connecting it to earth ground.
5.   To reduce noise, an electronic system should be connected to a separate “quiet ground” by using a separate, isolated ground rod. False, in addition to being untrue, this approach is dangerous and violates the requirements of the NEC (electrical code/rules).
6.   An earth ground is unidirectional, with current only flowing into the ground. False, because current must flow in loops, any current that flows into the ground must also flow out of the ground somewhere else.
7.   An isolated AC power receptacle is not grounded. False, the term “isolated” refers only to the method by which a receptacle is grounded, not if it is grounded.
8.   A system designer can name ground conductors by the type of the current that they should carry (i.e., signal, power, lightning, digital, analog, quiet, noisy, etc.), and the electrons will comply and only flow in the appropriately designated conductors. Obviously false.

Henry W. Ott

Speedskater · « **Reply #68 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 05:47 pm »

Quote from: mikeeastman on 6 Oct 2012, 04:34 pm

************ Now my questions, I will have 5 amps , 3- GR Research sevo amps ( 1 in each speaker and 1 in sub ) and 2 Ncores, can I put all 5 on same 30 amp circuit or should I run 2 circuits? I'm running cryoed 8-2 w/gr romex ,30' runs also sub panel parts and breakers will be croyed. my only source that runs on A/C will be my dac, everything else is battery powered, should dac be on its own circuit? Would it help to run ground from sub panel straight to ground rod instead of to main ground bar? I'm hard wiring all A/C equipment, no plugs or receptacles, except for the sevo amps for right now, *********
Any suggestion will be appreciated.
Mike

I'm not at all sure what electrical code you are working under, but if it's anything like the US NEC system, you want to connect the Isolated Ground to the Neutral and the System Ground at the service entrance. Also not sure how you get from a 30 Amp run down to 15 & 20 Amp components. But with a 30 Amp circuit put all the audio equipment on it.

Running a 30 Amp circuit with 8AWG wires to the audio room, then a small breaker box with 15 or 20 Amp breakers is a great way to power the system.

mikeeastman · « **Reply #69 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 08:07 pm »

Thanks for the response. Does it mean according to point 4 that I could just not connect the sub panel to ground? I was planning to connect all the equipment to the 30 amp circuit as the equipment has internal fusing and as my power is supplied by an inverter, I almost never trip a breaker because the inverter is more sensitive and faster than the breakers it shuts down first. What about I run 2 circuits 1 20 amp for sevos and 15 amp for Ncores and dac?

Speedskater · « **Reply #70 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 10:44 pm »

Grounds and Neutrals can only be joined together at the main panel.

But an inverter can be wired as a Separately Derived System (SDS) and that has a different set of codes.

mikeeastman · « **Reply #71 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 10:50 pm »

What I was suggesting was not connecting the sub panel ground at all.

Speedskater · « **Reply #72 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 10:53 pm »

Any metal box (panel, junction, switch or outlet) with a wire connection or wire splice needs to be grounded.

added content
But this does not need to be the same ground wire as the Isolated Ground wire.

kenreau · « **Reply #73 on:** 6 Dec 2012, 11:23 pm »

Quote from: srb on 6 Sep 2012, 02:21 am

Quote from: jarcher on 5 Sep 2012, 06:10 pm
(3) Keep all HT / Audio dedicated lines on the same phase at load center. Make sure dirty stuff like AC / refrigerator / etc are on another phase.

While the refrigerator and other 120V appliance circuits will connect to one side ("phase") of the panel, the "dirty" A/C and other 240V circuits will connect to both sides. Nothing you can do about that.

Steve

Firing this back up for a related question I had that I didn't see addressed.

I have already installed dedicated "hifi" circuits and have them on the same "leg" of the main power panel. I attempted to put most of the other "dirty" circuits on the other leg while keeping an eye on balancing the loads on the two legs.

My question is - does the placement order of the breakers in the panel influence any noise from the "dirty" circuits? I initially installed my "hifi" breakers at the first locations at the top of the panel. The "dirty" breakers were relocated towards the bottom, last slots. My notion was the "hifi" circuits would get first priority of the cleanest juice at the entry point.

I have to wonder now if flip flopping this circuit breaker order priority may improve the noise levels getting into the Hifi system. Could the "dirty" circuits noise run in and out of the panel in a more favorable manner if placed at the first locations? Or, are they all contaminating each other regardless of circuit breaker location?

Thx
Kenreau

Speedskater · « **Reply #74 on:** 7 Dec 2012, 12:55 am »

Theoretically the dirty circuits should come first. But the difference is extremely small. The shorter the bus-bar the less voltage drop the dirty noise currents will have.

kenreau · « **Reply #75 on:** 7 Dec 2012, 06:34 am »

Quote from: Speedskater on 7 Dec 2012, 12:55 am

Theoretically the dirty circuits should come first. But the difference is extremely small. The shorter the bus-bar the less voltage drop the dirty noise currents will have.

Sounds like it's probably not worth the time and effort to rearrange them then. I have a RSA Haley (for 2 channel) and newer Monster HTPC 7000 (for HT) in use now and have no noise issues.

Thanks
Kenreau

dlbeck · « **Reply #76 on:** 25 Dec 2012, 10:38 pm »

I will be running dedicated lines to my audio/HT setup and to do that I need to run from the garage to the basement through the attic. The easiest way to do that is through a 2" home run pipe that is currently carrying my RG6 and phone lines. Can I run the power lines thru flexible steel conduit to eliminate any RFI/EMI?

Thanks.

Speedskater · « **Reply #77 on:** 26 Dec 2012, 10:00 pm »

Is that 2 inch pipe EMT or metal flex or just plastic?

Just like they don't make waterproof wrist watches anymore (now they are water resistant), you can reduce EMI/RFI but not eliminate it.

mcallister · « **Reply #78 on:** 31 Mar 2013, 05:53 pm »

Bringing this back to life again. I'm a novice when it comes to electric and haven't a clue. About three years ago I spent $500 on a Plitron 3000VA Isolation Transformer on the suggestion Alen Maher because of noise problems with my system. I was able to get the problem fixed and didn't use the Unit so its been sitting in its box ever since.

Now I plan on using the Plitron from my new houses existing panel too a sub panel. I'm going to need many lines as this will be for a 7.1 home theater room with all active speakers. I will also need one 30 amp line for a Face audio f2000tx amp. Any suggestions on this setup please chime in? Will this even work?

Thanks!

Speedskater · « **Reply #79 on:** 31 Mar 2013, 06:12 pm »

Well 3000VA is 25 Amps at 120V so does the f2000tx really need 30 amps. Just how loud do you listen? Do you have space near but not in your listening room for the transformer? Does the Plitron have 240/120 V input? The new sub-panel should be in or near the listening room.