[doug s.]

Now that you mention it, QE, it would be interesting for Tom Danley to re-design the SH 50 for home use - scale it down. I imagine it would be feasible. There does seem to be an excessive surplus of dynamic capability for living room or even home theater use!

i would think the sm60f is what you are looking for.  needs subs but better high frequency response.  and, i think the sh50's need subs anyways...

i also like the looks/specs of the sm96, but it's a bit larger...

doug s.

[Russell Dawkins]

i would think the sm60f is what you are looking for.  needs subs but better high frequency response.  and, i think the sh50's need subs anyways...

i also like the looks/specs of the sm96, but it's a bit larger...

doug s.

Yes,  131dB peaks, 99dB/W/M,  66Hz-24kHz ±3dB, 1,600W power handling  and 50lbs vs 130 lbs, not to speak of 60°x60° dispersion look like good numbers, but I can't help wondering whether the mids and top being covered by a single 5" coaxial doesn't make this a fundamentally different sounding speaker. Also, I notice Danley calls the SH50 their "flagship speaker" and mention low distortion in their description - "For high SPL and low distortion sound reproduction". That phrase is missing from the SM60 description.

Also, It's hard to rationalize the performance differences, given the SM60 has 2 - 8" bass drivers and a coax 5" and the SH-50 has 2 - 12" bass drivers, 4 X 5" mids and  a 1" HF driver, yet the sensitivity difference is 1 dB, the power handling (continuous) is 800 and 1000 W, and the max spl is 131 vs 133 dB.

I am guessing the SM 96 has the same components as the SM60, but in a larger box which enables lower bass extension, but sensitivity and max spl numbers are 1 dB inferior to the SM60. It looks to be designed as a floor wedge, where the low end extension would be plenty.

[doug s.]

the sm96 frequency response is listed as +/-3db; the sm60 is +/-4db.  i'd rather have a tighter frequency response at a slight loss of efficiency/max spl...

doug s.

[ferenc_k]

Yes,  131dB peaks, 99dB/W/M,  66Hz-24kHz ±3dB, 1,600W power handling  and 50lbs vs 130 lbs, not to speak of 60°x60° dispersion look like good numbers, but I can't help wondering whether the mids and top being covered by a single 5" coaxial doesn't make this a fundamentally different sounding speaker. Also, I notice Danley calls the SH50 their "flagship speaker" and mention low distortion in their description - "For high SPL and low distortion sound reproduction". That phrase is missing from the SM60 description.

Also, It's hard to rationalize the performance differences, given the SM60 has 2 - 8" bass drivers and a coax 5" and the SH-50 has 2 - 12" bass drivers, 4 X 5" mids and  a 1" HF driver, yet the sensitivity difference is 1 dB, the power handling (continuous) is 800 and 1000 W, and the max spl is 131 vs 133 dB.

I am guessing the SM 96 has the same components as the SM60, but in a larger box which enables lower bass extension, but sensitivity and max spl numbers are 1 dB inferior to the SM60. It looks to be designed as a floor wedge, where the low end extension would be plenty.

The SH50 is an older design, the SM60F much younger. So I think even Tom Danley learnt how to make smaller boxes. For home application I would prefer the SM60F against the SH50/60, if you want use sub anyway. I was living for quite a while with the SH50 and the SM60F and I think the SM60F is a bit smoother, similarly well controlled and dynamic compared to the SH50, but much easier to find a stand and to place well in the room and it takes much less room generally. Just a bit less loud overall, but it has no relevance at all at home, you will not be close to loudness capability of the SH50 or SM60F for sure. For PA the SH50 is capable to handle larger rooms, more distance from the listeners, but again it is in large hally, not at home.

[ferenc_k]

the sm96 frequency response is listed as +/-3db; the sm60 is +/-4db.  i'd rather have a tighter frequency response at a slight loss of efficiency/max spl...

doug s.

I do not think this 1 dB extra precision (measured not in real rooms) has any relevance when the speakers are in real rooms. Because of the wider dispersion in the majority of the rooms probably much easier to place the SM60F well, then the SM96. I believe the 60 x 60 dispersion is a bit better for average size room than the 90 x 60 dispersion.

[doug s.]

I do not think this 1 dB extra precision (measured not in real rooms) has any relevance when the speakers are in real rooms. Because of the wider dispersion in the majority of the rooms probably much easier to place the SM60F well, then the SM96. I believe the 60 x 60 dispersion is a bit better for average size room than the 90 x 60 dispersion.

probably true for most rooms.  some day, if i ever get my 26x38 room back (or something similar), the wider dispersion may be ok...  and for me, using something like a deqx will likely negate any small frequency response precision...

doug s.

[pcasper]

Paul

What do you think of them now that you've had time with them to compare to the UcD?

JTWRace,

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your question.  I don't want to hijack this Danley thread with a long reply, so I will try and be brief.

The Hypex Ncore400s replaced Hypex UCD400HG modules in my system, so understand that my reference amps were also of very high quality and based on identical technology, by the same manufacturer.

I don't think there is any significant difference over the UCD400s in the bass and midrange.  However, I have convinced myself that the treble is just a bit smoother, detailed, and easier on the ears.  Being an old grizzled engineer, I would love to do a double-blind test to prove what I just said, but I do not have the necessary equipment to perform one.  When I switched from an Audio Research Classic 60 tube amp to the UCDs a few years ago there was no doubt about the difference, but I am far less confident about the audible improvement of Ncores over UCDs.  Of course, I am confident my 71 year old ears are not as golden as most on this forum, so my observations may not be worth much.

That's about it.  Not very helpful I'm sure, but I have to call it as I hear it!

Paul

[poseidonsvoice]

JTWRace,

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your question.  I don't want to hijack this Danley thread with a long reply, so I will try and be brief.

The Hypex Ncore400s replaced Hypex UCD400HG modules in my system, so understand that my reference amps were also of very high quality and based on identical technology, by the same manufacturer.

I don't think there is any significant difference over the UCD400s in the bass and midrange.  However, I have convinced myself that the treble is just a bit smoother, detailed, and easier on the ears.  Being an old grizzled engineer, I would love to do a double-blind test to prove what I just said, but I do not have the necessary equipment to perform one.  When I switched from an Audio Research Classic 60 tube amp to the UCDs a few years ago there was no doubt about the difference, but I am far less confident about the audible improvement of Ncores over UCDs.  Of course, I am confident my 71 year old ears are not as golden as most on this forum, so my observations may not be worth much.

That's about it.  Not very helpful I'm sure, but I have to call it as I hear it!

Paul

Paul,

If it is any consolation/confirmation, when we were at your place and we switched to my Ncores, the 1st thing I whispered to Launche was, "the top end is smoother."

Your ears are about as golden as a fella 1/2 your age, so be proud!

Again, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and hold Danley now in the highest of pedigrees.

Best,
Anand.

[jollee]

Paul,

one more question for SH50:

In your reply it looks like if I buy a pair of them , it is definitely needed a matched pair one.

so , my question is: what are the data to tell if it is matched or not?


thanks

Jollee

[pcasper]

Jollee,

You will have to request a matched pair from Danley, based on frequency response.  They have the measurement data for every speaker so it is not difficult for them to select a pair if they have sufficient inventory on hand.  Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

Paul

[jtwrace]

BTW-There are a used pair of Danley SH100B's on audiogon now.  Search Danley and they will come up. 

[berni]

I wanted to share what I heard of the speakers but did not want to name my source as it was a private conversation I had about the speakers. I will share the email but keep the person's name out of it as I think he would be o.k. with that. This is not just some audio hobbiest talking, trust me. I only share this for discussions sake and have absolutely no beef with Danley, or want to cause any issues with them. Everyone has their opinions, so take it that way.

"Recently, I have had "the pleasure" to hear the famous Danley synergy horns, specifically the Danley SM 60F model. I don`t know how much you`re familiar with their design, but let me just point out that some audiophiles went completely crazy over them.
At some audio forum someone said he owned the Avantgarde Trios, but sold them when he heard the Danleys. He said Danleys outperformed some heavy competition from the big Wilsons, Magicos, JM Labs, etc. Even on some local forums here in my country people started to rave insanely about them.

Now, if you remember, I have already mentioned I have experimented with horns really extensively for a few years. I`m completely aware of all their pros and cons and am very familiar with their general sound.

I went to check their design attributes in detail and was immediately able to imagine the type of sound they would produce, just according to their dimensions, driver arrangement in the horn throat and everything else. Despite all that, I thought, what if Danley somehow miraculously cured all of the typical horn problems?

I went with a friend of mine across the country and listened to the two systems with Danley speakers that were supposedly superior to everything else.

I`m not sure I have the will to explain everything in great detail, but if I say that I was disappointed would be a massive understatement.

The moment the music started to play - I hated myself for travelling such a long distance just to hear the mediocre public address system!

Horn honk and HOMs (higher order modes) were just unbearable. There was no upper bass/lower midrange (the fundamental frequency region that all music is built upon) to speak of and the horns were just plain simple annoying.

I know very well how Avantgarde Trios can perform and their sound is balm for the ears, compared to Danleys. OMG..."


Rocket_Don't Shoot The Messenger_Ronny

This report is no bullshit. I am the friend who the anonyimous went to listen the DAnley. And I can say the same as written by ronnie or the ... Sadly but true.

[poseidonsvoice]

This report is no bullshit. I am the friend who the anonyimous went to listen the DAnley. And I can say the same as written by ronnie or the ... Sadly but true.

Bernard!

Thanks for dropping by from Slovenia, and giving us your perspective. Can you expand upon whether the systems were augmented with subwoofers or not? Do you have any pictures of the get together? We have a picture of pcasper's system for all to see, to understand how his system was set up which is why I am curious.

(OT) Your Manger build from about 2 years ago was beautiful btw.

Thanks again,

Anand.

[berni]

My system is now different
Magnepan 20.1 with my diy aluminium stand( similar Mye), Ese lab ANU preamp,MC2 Mc 1250 amplifier, audiotekne signal cabel, Lessloss dfpc signature power cords, Olive 4hd ...
The system with Danlyes was set in the same room as the 20.1 which were owned before, with Joule electra anniversary preamp, the turntable I dont remerber, Spectron amps, ....with two Velodyne F1200 and once with the rotary woofer.
The impact, dynamics and focus was great on the Danleys , but immeditely you could hear the sound coming from a tunnel or a can, that is what was meant by horn artefacts. And you can't overlook it.

[ufokillerz]

looking to get some danley speakers for my ht setup, but finding them used it so hard! and new is out of my league!

[richidoo]

launche invited me for a listen today. I stopped in for about two hours. Lots of fun, thanks Eric.

I had heard Eric's system before, but it was not dialed in yet. Today was a big improvement. Eric also added a Danley tapped horn sub TH-50.

The system is all passive with DAC Cherry on the SH-50s, Rotel on the TH-50, Oppo CDP, W4S pre. SH50s are very solid DIY stands that Eric made. They were well positioned, further out in the room than before.   We sat about 13 feet away angle between mains was about 80 degrees if I'm guessing.

The best thing about the SH50s is their immediacy, intimacy, connection of the artist and spirit of the music to the listener. It is very easy to plug into the music. I think this is due to the flat phase response. Twisting phase creates an unnaturalness that the brain has to listen through to get to the essence. Removing phase error makes listening easy. Music sounds relaxed and free, it feels like a more personal connection to the music which is what I think we are all looking for.

The next best thing about the SH50s is the dynamic headroom. Yes, they are horns and they can play loud and there is no feeling of running out of steam at all. We started off with some Sade, then Resphigi, Kind of Blue, Holst, then we got into some Black eye Peas, Yellow, cranking it up gradually. They handled Holst's Jupiter effortlessly, playing as loud as I would ever care to.  The dance music has the excitement and drama of being in a real club. It is a physical emotional response, but that is an important part of all music. Even Beethoven used tympani for drama. I would love to have a system that could handle symphonic music at loud levels as well as this. It sounds like there is no limit. So when it swells up you really feel the excitement.  We all like a little dance music now and then.

The overall frequency response of Eric's system needs some tweeking. Danley himself has said that the SH50s are tuned flat with treble uptick because they are intended for listening at a distance. Distance attenuates HF, so in targeting a flat response at 50-100ft  the treble is too hot for 13 feet distance. I personally would tweek the already present tweeter attentuation pad to give the preferred rolloff that all good sounding hifi speakers possess. 20 = 20k with a smoothly rounded 6dB bump at 60Hz, at 1m. I noticed this hotness in the tone of some wide frequency band instruments like double reeds and brass, steel string guitar, etc, as well as on jazz when the ride cymbal is just too loud and distracts a little from the midrange soloist. Easy fix.

Eric has a TH50 tapped horn sub now. It is very large and intimidating! It is very powerful and sounds pretty punchy. I think that like all tapped horns, transient response is not perfect so it is more adept at adding slam and fullness than for etching out LF echo of a symphony, or playing organ fundamentals as clearly as a sealed cone subwoofer. But this is how Eric likes it. He likes a warm full bass that fulls up the room with powerful presence and gives gravitas to loud rock.  I prefer low group delay and room gain matching rolloff of sealed bass. That better suits my music preferences of classical and jazz where I want the most natural and accurate sound quality possible.

There is always the difficulty of integrating a sub with stereo main speakers. Eric's room is large, but very odd shaped, and I think there are some weird modes going on there that prevent accurate description of what the speakers are doing. I think the bass clarity can be improved with EQ and phase adjustments, maybe getting the sub away from boundaries. It doesn't need them and would sound clearer with more space. But it is very big, so that won't be easy. The thing that I took away from hearing the TH50 is the awesome power. Just like the SH50s, when you crank it up it just surges effortlessly louder, without strain or anxiety. TH50 does the same in the bass, a feeling of no limit. I will bring organ music next time!

Tone. OK here's the part you want to know....  after the break.... haha

[richidoo]

Sorry, not as much time as I thought I would have tonight.

The tone of the SH50 is good. Perfectionist tone freaks will not be satisfied with any compression driver tweeter short of TAD beryllium in a true tractrix horn. SH-50 is not that. 

It's not good enough for people who live on violin trios and flute sonatas. It is plenty good enough for any kind of popular music where the tone is manipulated by EQ and added distortion anyway. If the treble FR was rolled off more as it would be if voiced for domestic use, then the tone would probably be acceptable for chamber music, but it's never gonna be a RAAL ribbon or diamond dome. Below 5k, the tone is excellent, right down to 50Hz. Baritone sax sounds very realistic. Snare drums sound great, piano, and brass all benefit from the CD highs.

Upgrading the quality of capacitors in the crossover would also probably help the treble on the most delicate instruments. That is true for any speaker, but the SH50 is rate for like 1000 watts, so filter caps are rated accordingly, meaning they are optimized for power, not refinement.  It is also pro audio, which means it is built to a price. To most customers, these are like work tools. "Not blowing up during the show" is more important than "scintillating highs" or "crystalline sunbeams of air."

Lots of excuses, yes, but I'm being realistic. They are pro audio speakers with very special qualities that a music loving audiophile can appreciate. The BMS drivers are excellent quality so the potential is there. Danley has mentioned he would like to develop an audiophile version of the unity horn, but it will likely never happen considering the priority and the cost of luxury marketing. Doesn't mean an enterprising audiophile can't tweek the stock SH50s to achieve  audiophile refinement top to bottom.

I didn't hear any horny hollowness as mentioned by previous poster. I agree that some horn speakers have a big problem with that, but I didn't notice it in either listening session (today or last Sept).

I am looking forward to working with Eric in the future on his system. Maybe he'll take a look at the xo parts, maybe he'll want to tweak the tweeter pad. But he is very happy with how they sound now, and I have to admit, on the CDs of his choice today, on his music they were really sounding great. The added edge and power really stirs the adrenaline and stirs the soul. So why should he explore changes?

Tone quality is relative. A seasoned acoustic musician is going to have different requirements for tonal accuracy than most listeners. Audiophiles are not all created equally. We like music and we have money, that's all we have in common. Most audiophiles are not trained listeners and can't tell the difference between a correct sounding bassoon and incorrect. People care more about the feeling the music gives them. They focus on beat melody and lyrics more than tone quality and dynamics. For them, a Danley unity horn is a great speaker. The tonal accuracy is better than any kind of consumer speaker, even high end consumer stuff like Polk or Infinity. But what will blow them away is the connection to the music and the feelings that makes in them.  Why do we do this anyway?

I'd really like to hear the SM60Fs sometime. Ferenc says they have more treble refinement using a center coax driver rather than separate CD and mids. But the xo will still benefit from some nice caps, and the tweeter will still need padding down a couple dB for up close listening.  Neither are difficult to do.

Thanks again Eric, for inviting me over and for encouraging me to write an honest opinion of what I heard.
Rich

[richidoo]

My system sounds thin and small compared to the Danleys. Normally I am quite satisfied with the fullness of my system, with 8" mid and two 12" woofers per side.

Also, the Danleys had excellent imaging, both in left/right dimension and in depth. They completely disappeared. Instruments were clearly delineated right up to the edge of the speakers, did not get sucked in. Depth resolution was so good that I could sense that Niels Lofgren's voice was a few feet behind his guitar, probably due to slight phase difference between the two mics.

I should also say with regard to my comments about strong treble of the Danleys that I prefer rolled off treble. Not dull, but very natural, definitely not hifi amount of treble, I don't like to consciously "hear" the treble it is distracting to me. The designer of my speakers specified 2.2ohm pad to the tweeter, I have 5ohms.  But the Danley treble level was too hot for me, might be just right for those who like detail and treble stimulation, which is most audiophiles. Most visitors say my system sounds too rolled compared to what they are used to. Like I said, playing pop and rock music it sounded about right for that genre, very stimulating and major fun.

I have a DIY horn project in the queue, I think I will bump it ahead based on my experience yesterday. I find myself craving that strong connection that I heard yesterday. Will try to hear the SM60F this summer.

[Letitroll98]

Awesome posts.  I can picture the sound in my head.

[poseidonsvoice]

Rich,

Great post. I very much enjoyed the Danley's as well when Eric invited me to his colleagues home in western NC. To me, they are a long term speaker. I stopped the whole DIY aspect of loudspeakers once I heard a properly designed CD speaker. Instead I tinker now with the electronic side of things - to each his own, what a gas!

Regarding the treble aspect of the Danley's I thought somewhat the same, however, I soon got used to it, and found that with the NCore 400's (which we switched in about 1/2 way into our audition), the treble was a bit more like honeysuckle. I could live with both varieties honestly as different genres of music and different recording techniques work with different treble extensions (if that makes any sense).

The one thing that is amazing about Danleys and other CD designs, is the absolute realism. The damn thing just sucks you in, time and time again. Every other system starts to sound compressed when compared to a high sensitivity CD design. You can't ignore the performance, you stop conversing with your colleagues, and just pay attention!

Good luck in your projects...but if I were you, I'd just get a pair of Danleys or other DIY CD design!

Best,
Anand.