[Letitroll98]

Man you're asking a lot, we were just trying to have a little fun.

It was just an informal listening session and not meant to be any type of exhaustive endeavor, for me I'll leave it at that.  I've said far more than I care too and my apologies if any were offended.  No harm, no foul and I understand your curious attempts to squeeze the lemon but we really were just having a little splash and were not trying to make lemonade.

On the other hand you are most welcome to say it's a thread about a nice visit to launche's home and I should shut up about the speakers, and I will.  In either case, thanks for indulging me.   

Point taken, I'll shut up about the speakers now.

In the future, I will keep a look out for your exhaustive reports, should be very informative. 

Well, given the opportunity to toot my own horn loudly, I'll usually take it.  I do have a number of exhaustive reviews posted on the site, I'm sure all of them too boring to look up.  However you're welcome to do so and thrash me soundly about them with no offence taken, I owe you at least that.   

[doug s.]

wow!   

all i know is that the danley sh50's and the sm60f's are one of a wery few models of speakers that are on my list of "i really wanna hear these".  this thread has only reinforced my desire, rocket ronny's friend's post notwithstanding - thanks, launche for inwiting anand and jason over, and thanks anand, jason and launche, for your opinions.  and, for me, there's plenty of "meat" to the comments to give me an idea of how these sound.

imo, rocket's friend simply does not like the horn presentation, ewidenced by the preface to his comments, regarding the look of the speakers.  it is also possible that the system he heard was not well set-up, tho that's mere speculation on my part.  (if i had to guess, i'd guess there were no subs, and the room was a live room.)  i suspect he simply does not like horns - that's ok, many folks don't.  i happen to love horns, if they're good.  to me, good horns sound like music.

bottom line, like everything else - no one's description - no matter how detailed - is gonna tell you how something sounds to you.  for that, you have to experience it yourself.  my biases tell me i would prefer the sm60f's, simply because they have better high frequency extension.  but who knows - the thiel 3.5's i owned and loved for so many years were rated only to 19khz; not much different than the sh50's 18khz rating.  and i prolly can't hear anything >18khz anyway!     low end is not an issue, as i would be using subs.

again, i'd love to hear either the sh50 or the sm60f; this thread has reinforced my desires.  i would also love to hear the spud, the dts10 or dts20 subs...

doug s.

[paulcasper]

Hello to everyone,

I just found this thread, which has stimulated my interest.  I am the owner of three Danley SH50s, which have performed LCR duties in my 5.1 theater for several years now.  I would be glad to offer a few observations, if there is still interest in continuing this thread.

Paul

[Letitroll98]

Welcome Paul.  I've been told to shut up about the speakers and have respectfully agreed to do so.  However you are welcome to wax eloquently to your heart's content, and I for one would read every word.  But I have to go back in the corner and shut up now.   

[jtwrace]

Hello to everyone,

I just found this thread, which has stimulated my interest.  I am the owner of three Danley SH50s, which have performed LCR duties in my 5.1 theater for several years now.  I would be glad to offer a few observations, if there is still interest in continuing this thread.

Paul

This thread was started from what I heard at your place.   

[poseidonsvoice]

Indeed Paul, please go ahead and give us your opinion and journey to how you settled on the Danleys. Thank you once again for indulging myself, Jtwrace, and Launche. A fun filled and memorable afternoon, no doubt.

Anand.

[paulcasper]

Anand, you are very welcome.  I enjoyed your company, your music, and testing the NC400 amps on my system.  It was a blast...all of you are welcome anytime.

By the way, I have three NC400s on hand, plus three SMPS supplies, and I am just waiting on the enclosures to get started building my three mono amps.  After hearing yours (or were they jtrace's?) I am confident they will prove to be another small step toward audio nirvana!

Wow, where to start?  I am going to try to be brief, but hopefully helpful to anyone considering SH50s.

First, don't expect to bring them into the room, put 'em on supports and expect superior sound.  These speakers were designed to be flown, with no boundary reinforcement.  In my experience, when placed in a typical room, the bass will be elevated and very unsmooth, primarily due to cancellation/reinforcement from the floor reflection.  In my case, the speaker axis ended up about 33 inches off the floor, which gives rise to a floor induced cancellation in the 100-200Hz range at my listening position, and a boost below 100 Hz.  As a result, the speakers sounded too warm, and the bass was bumpy.  It was particularly obvious on male voices.  The solution was accurate equalization, at first with an external equalizer, superseded by the Audyssey eq in my Marantz pre-pro.  There is a reason that the woofers in a typical speaker are near the floor!

In my outdoor measurements, I found a fair amount of response ripple in the 200-300Hz crossover region, which was also corrected by eq.  With my first set of speakers, the ripple was bad enough and different enough between the two speakers that the imaging was very unstable.  So, I sent the graphs to Mike Hedden at Danley (the president), along with a description of what was happening, and he sent me a new, better matched pair.  I suspect that the production tolerances on the response ripple are not as tight as a typical high end audiophile speaker, and for the intended application, they do not really need to be.  So, the message is, you really need to accurately measure these speakers outdoors to know what you actually have.  I would specify a well-matched pair if I was to order new speakers today.  They measure the response of every unit, so they have the data.

Once overcoming these issues, there are a couple of other matters you need to think about.  First, are you implementing a 2 channel system or a 5.1 (or 7.1) surround sound system?  In the former case, in my opinion, you want to carefully treat the room to contribute to the acoustic ambiance.  In the case of surround sound, the surround speakers take care of that objective, and you want the room to disappear.  Fortunately, the SH50s are highly suited for a surround system because of their directionality and minimal illumination of the room boundaries (except for the rear wall behind the listening position).  That is what I designed, and I have little experience with optimizing the speakers for 2 channel performance.  I found that drapes behind the LP were sufficient to take care of the rear window reflections, and I added two acoustically absorbent 'clouds' to dampen any ceiling reflections, but I can't say they made much difference.  My side walls are far away from the speakers, so I had no need to worry about sidewall treatment.

With all the above done, the sound really started to get my attention.  I kept my Avantgarde Duos all this time, to be sure the Danleys were going to be superior, as one listener I knew about had found in comparison with his Avantgarde Trios.  I lived with the Duos for almost 8 years, and I thought I had arrived at the end of the upgrade road until I finally got the Danleys optimized in my room.  A fellow in California now has my Duos.

My preferred listening position in the concert hall is close to row A.  The Danleys are definitely row A.  The Duos were more like row H - more polite, less in-your-face.  If you don't care for exceedingly transparent, etched sound, perhaps they are not a good choice for you.  I use mine with Hypex UCD400HG class D amps, which also contribute to the etched sound, but with well recorded program material, I do not find them strident.  With bright material, they can split your head....no fault of the speakers.  We found that the new NC400 amps from Hypex added a bit of smoothness and refinement in the treble...enough to motivate me to upgrade.

I could go on and on, but I think I will stop here and try to address any specific concerns anyone has.  I am an old grizzled retired electrical engineer, and do not subscribe to most audiophile tweaks, but I have no argument with those that hear the effects of power cords, megabuck speaker cables, or anything else.  I just have nothing exotic in my own system.   At 71 years old, I'm lucky to hear anything, much less the effects of oxygen in the copper.  Maybe that's why I like the Danleys so much....they can play LOUD!

By the way, you can get an idea of my setup from this picture:

http://www.pbase.com/pcasper/image/109260354

There have been a few changes since the picture, but nothing very significant (removed the front acoustical treatment).  The most difficult challenge in this setup was forcing the center SH50 on the floor to perform acceptably, but I will leave that discussion for a later time.

Paul

[ferenc_k]

I wanted to share what I heard of the speakers but did not want to name my source as it was a private conversation I had about the speakers. I will share the email but keep the person's name out of it as I think he would be o.k. with that. This is not just some audio hobbiest talking, trust me. I only share this for discussions sake and have absolutely no beef with Danley, or want to cause any issues with them. Everyone has their opinions, so take it that way.

"Recently, I have had "the pleasure" to hear the famous Danley synergy horns, specifically the Danley SM 60F model. I don`t know how much you`re familiar with their design, but let me just point out that some audiophiles went completely crazy over them.
At some audio forum someone said he owned the Avantgarde Trios, but sold them when he heard the Danleys. He said Danleys outperformed some heavy competition from the big Wilsons, Magicos, JM Labs, etc. Even on some local forums here in my country people started to rave insanely about them.

Now, if you remember, I have already mentioned I have experimented with horns really extensively for a few years. I`m completely aware of all their pros and cons and am very familiar with their general sound.

I went to check their design attributes in detail and was immediately able to imagine the type of sound they would produce, just according to their dimensions, driver arrangement in the horn throat and everything else. Despite all that, I thought, what if Danley somehow miraculously cured all of the typical horn problems?

I went with a friend of mine across the country and listened to the two systems with Danley speakers that were supposedly superior to everything else.

I`m not sure I have the will to explain everything in great detail, but if I say that I was disappointed would be a massive understatement.

The moment the music started to play - I hated myself for travelling such a long distance just to hear the mediocre public address system!

Horn honk and HOMs (higher order modes) were just unbearable. There was no upper bass/lower midrange (the fundamental frequency region that all music is built upon) to speak of and the horns were just plain simple annoying.

I know very well how Avantgarde Trios can perform and their sound is balm for the ears, compared to Danleys. OMG..."


Rocket_Don't Shoot The Messenger_Ronny

I am the one who owned an Avantgarde Trio for some 7 years then changed to Danley speakers, and I have SH50, SM60F and SH100B and quite a few of the range as our company is using them for live events. It seems my words regarding  the change from Avantgarde to Danley now getting to be a kind of urban legend. as I am quite sure I never compared them to any Magico or JMLab as I never had any of them.

When I got my first SH50s I wrote my experience on the Audio Asylum forum, so this is the origin of this story. Tom Danley and Ivan Beaver from Danley Soundlabs were kind enough to comment my questions and experience there.

Since then I have a chance to try and to use practically all of the Synergy horns from Danley, not only for PA duties but at home too. I honestly can say that it is practically impossible to hear any honk or typical horn coloration from an SM60F, to say this is a kind of mystery for me. The SM60F (with a TH Mini or CS30 or TH28 Danley sub and with a high quality digital crossover like the DEQX and with an amp like MC2 Audio MC1250, S1400 or Parasound JC1) is the most home friendly, smoothest sounding Danley setup, kind of extremely good hifi like, not at all PA on the wrong way. I am really amazed how anybody could hear a "honk"  in its sound.

For home  use beside the better known SH50 and SM60F, the SH100B can be very good or the SH LPM too. The SH100B has an integrated subwoofer, in a form of 4 pieces of 8 inch woofers in a tapped horn enclosure. the SH LPM is a floor monitor with an 8 inch coax can be used with sub or without if you can put it in a corner.

In case of the Danley speakers at home the right height ( a bit above your head when sitting) of the stand/speaker is essential for getting the best from them.

This is the SH100B as PA and in a home environment:

http://youtu.be/NgG8twt5zww

and then in a very simple PA setup, playing some live smooth jazz:

http://youtu.be/A5aOg4Yp7fg

It is Patricia Barber playing in a medieval castle for few hundred people only through a pair of Danley SH50 and TH118:
http://youtu.be/Aj9h-IRu4iE?hd=1

[Rocket_Ronny]

i'd love to hear either the sh50 or the sm60f

Me too Doug.

Rocket_Ronny

[Letitroll98]

Thanks muchly to both paulcasper and ferenc_k for their excellent posts.  A case where the combination of the two adds up to more than just the sum of each post.  I know this to be the case because I was so engrossed in reading each and checking out the links that I forgot that I had to approve Paul's post for a few minutes.  (Paul has his minimum two posts in now so we can look forward to more from him without any administrative approvals)  Now I have at least a picture of the advantages of the Danley's in PA systems, and why they're problematic for home use, but have a big reward if you can get it right.  I guess I'm saying it all makes sense to me now. 

The two PA systems playing a Jazz group and Ms Barber were stunning, even on YouTube.  I've rarely heard amplified music done so well.  The home recording, not so much.  Granted, it's a recording of unknown origin posted on YouTube, but it was brittle and honky sounding, just exactly like the criticisms quoted earlier in the thread (perhaps that person only listened to the YouTube video and never actually heard the Danley's live, who knows).  But then looking at Paul's setup you can get an idea of how those problems can be solved with some room to breath, proper placement, judicious EQ, etc. as he described in his post.  And listening to the PA installations, one can understand how you would want to put in some work to get THAT sound in your home.

Thanks again gentlemen, very well done.

[jollee]

Hi everyone,
I am quite interesting for Danley SH 50, But due to my poor english, I hesitated to ask questions and get no feedback.

My Room size is somehow like this:



My questions are:
 a) is this position suitable for SH60/50 ? in such distance any uncomfortable?
 b) A room like this, how much watt the amplifer need to be? As I prefer tube amplifier, is a Single End 300B or A Push Pull PX25? or PP- KT88? can handle that?
 C) I just search a lot on Web, it looks like someone describle the SH50/60 as a big electrostatic speaker which can provide the same transparent sound as these system like stax, quad? but with even more energy?     As I have no Idea about that. Is it really sound like this?

thanks in advance.

Jollee

[paulcasper]

Hello Jollee,

Your drawing resolution is too low to read the dimensions, but I have made a few guesses and I will try and answer some of your questions.

1.  I see no problem with SH50 or SH60 speakers in the locations you have drawn.  Tom Danley would probably suggest you try the speakers up against the sidewalls to eliminate the sidewall reflections and improve imaging.  If you did that, you would probably have to equalize the bass down a bit because of the boundary reinforcement.

2.  I would suggest a solid state amp, but a higher powered tube amp with negative feedback (low output impedance) would be fine.  I used an Audio Research Classic 60 on my SH50s for a while, but an amplifier based on Hypex UCD400 modules was definitely better, especially in the bass.  I now use Hypex Ncore 400 modules.  I most definitely would not suggest a single ended amp.  In my experience, the frequency response of a high output impedance single ended amp as loaded by the speaker is very frequency and speaker impedance dependent, and you will not experience neutral performance.  You might like the sound, but it will not be accurate.

3.  I used Quad electrostatics for over 20 years.  I replaced them with Avantgarde Duos, which I used for 8 years.  The Danley SH50s replaced the Duos after living with both for a year.  In my opinion, the properly set up SH50s with quality class-D amplification, are in the same transparency class as good electrostatics, with vastly more dynamic capability.  Also, the SH50s are quite directional and thus do not suffer as much as dipole radiators from room effects.  This makes them especially well suited for 5.1 surround sound systems, where room influences are not desirable.  The SH50s, after much effort to set them up plus a bit of equalization to minimize boundary influences, are the best speakers I have ever heard at any price.  Of course, you must pair them with very good sub woofers to achieve full range performance, since they roll off below 50Hz.

I hope this is helpful, Jollee.  I will be glad to try and answer any further questions you might have.

Paul

[jtwrace]

I  now use Hypex Ncore 400 modules. 
Paul

Paul

What do you think of them now that you've had time with them to compare to the UcD?

[doug s.]

hi jollee,

welcome to a/c!   

if i am reading your drawing correctly, your room, at 3820mm x 3840mm is almost square.  and, not too large either, at ~12.5' x12.5'.  since these speakers are supposed to be wery directional, i suspect the danley's would do better in such a room than most, but i would suggest shifting everything into a diamond-shaped layout, w/one corner between the speakers, and the opposite corner directly behind you.  the other two corners will be to your left/right.  i would do this regardless of what speakers you finally end up with - it will be better to have more space behind the listening seat, and also have the walls angling away from the sides of the speakers. 

arranging things asymmetrically left-to-right, as you have shown, will also be helpful, so standing waves won't be evenly reinforced.  but, you might want to shift the speakers to the left, so the right speaker won't be so close to the chair?  if you keep the layout square, i would also consider changing the distance from the walls; ie: instead of 1000mm for both speakers, try 950mm for the left speaker and 1050 for the right.  also, i would lose the table in front of the sofa.  even if you go w/the diamond layout, which i still recommend, i would try for a slightly asymmetrical layout.

regarding power, whatever amp you would choose, 5wpc would be more than enough, even in a room much larger than yours!  for a relatively reasonable priced, yet world-class low power tube amp, i would check out the almarro a205a mkll.  besides killer sound, it uses el84 tubes; the bigger tubes will act like space heaters in that room.  maybe ok in the winter?   

doug s.

[Quiet Earth]

Nice looking line of speakers. I would love to have something like those SM-100Bs for our FOH duty. But at 135lbs. each, ain't no way. No one ever helps the lowly sound man set up. (Or especially, tear down.  ) Plus, it would be total overkill for the size gig that we ever do. Which leads me to wonder . . .

You guys really serious about putting something like this inside your house? That's not really what they were made for is it? Don't these things thrive on hundreds of tone-shaped watts and huge spaces?

Maybe I should hook up our little EV ELX112s in the house to see what all the fuss is about. SET gone wild . . . PA style.    Think I'll try it.  I'm inspired.

[Russell Dawkins]

Now that you mention it, QE, it would be interesting for Tom Danley to re-design the SH 50 for home use - scale it down. I imagine it would be feasible. There does seem to be an excessive surplus of dynamic capability for living room or even home theater use!

[jollee]

Appreciated for all !

actually my current system just be placed in the living room, but with some decoration, I'll provide more photos for identification.

thanks!

[launche]

Excessive surplus of dynamic capability... I've always thought that to be a good thing.
Ever watch a movie and jump in your seat and your heart starts pounding because of an on screen gunshot or the sudden fffff of a score in a tense scene in a film? A sound so startlingly dynamic and loud as to elicit such a reaction.  I use film as an example because it involves more senses and when visually and intellectually stimulated I find the suspension of disbelief to be much higher.  Now I know many here don't care about gunshots and sound effects per se but what I am talking about is the emotional response, the reason I indulge in most media.

Dynamics are a cornerstone of music, an often under appreciated and overlooked cornerstone I might add.  From the recordings to the reproduction.  For a lot of modern mass produced music, dynamics aren't appreciated as much mainly because of how lackluster most recordings are but when you want to rev the engine it's on tap and you're not afraid to do it.  I think I read a recent article about designing a great hi-fi speaker and tone, dynamics and bass were at the bottom of the list and I can't wrap my mind around that.  If one actually did reduce those elements IMO you'd have something that sounds bland.

In my mind, the hi-fi industry is almost defined by excessively overbuilt products, run down the list from capacitors, to wire, to cabinets, a host of overbuilt products that we praise on a daily basis.  For anyone who has ever fried a voice coil, blown a tweeter etc... they might welcome the excess capabilities of a Danley speaker or the like.  Speaking to that point I remember once doing some measuring and got a nasty feedback from something (mic).  A sound so alarmingly loud, menacing and terrifying (WOTW tripod horn) that you lose all thought for a few seconds in sheer panic while your brain tries to make sense of the situation.  The devil has come calling... shut it off.  The fear of a calamity upon you knowing the aftermath will not be good, the Danley's are howlin' the hell's wind and this is not going to end well.  Killed the power and after rechecking all was ok but no doubt a lesser speaker may have bit the dust (been there, done that).  I break stuff, that's what I do and that these are built like a tank is another reason for the purchase.  A man's speaker indeed, Manly Danley's.

[Russell Dawkins]

Far be it from me to downplay the advantages of adequate headroom, by which I mean about 20dB more than is conventionally considered adequate!

I was just toying with the notion that certain design criteria might have been compromised in order to achieve 100dB/W sensitivity coupled with 1000 WRMS power handling which strikes me as providing perhaps 15dB more capability than even I would think is needed in the living room. I was wondering what Tom might come up with if he were designing specifically for, say, the larger home theater - but without compromise. I presume he would use slightly smaller midrange and bass drivers. I am assuming, of course, a subwoofer - perhaps his "TH Spud": http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/tapped-horns/th-spud/

[JohnR]

I was wondering what Tom might come up with if he were designing specifically for, say, the larger home theater - but without compromise.

Perhaps something like the older Unity, which doesn't have the 12" woofers - ? However, I'm not sure that there would be much reason for it other than a narrower box.

http://www.cowanaudio.com/unity.html