[Cheeseboy]

I started at $5K and had to bump to $6K to complete it.  I still need room treatments, media storage center, DAC and power filtering.  Are we ever really finished?  I have a plan to replace stuff with something better and cheaper in the future.  The motivation is to be happy about my system and purchase some of the things I mentioned.

Cheap and Cheerful.

[DaveC113]

The funny thing is, to most people, $1000 for a stereo is an astronomical, ludicrous amount of money.

Whaaaat? I don't think so... there's multi-thousand dollar stereos in any big box store.

I was looking at speaker in the $1k range before I was 18.

[DaveC113]

Oops, I forgot this is the C and C circle.  I have own several and have heard many other $1K or less systems and while some of them have sounded good, none have given me more satisfaction than a synergistic system that cost several thousands.  I have tried many times to duplicate that sound for $1K or $2K for my bedroom system over the years and have never approached it.  It would be quite a challenge for anyone to achieve that goal.  Good luck.

I agree, and it comes down to where you draw the limit, it is a personal scale as Cheeseboy said. However, I have noticed there is a definite line in the sand in some items. For example a SET amp... you want up to 7-8 WPC, great... there's a hundred options around $1k, you want 20 WPC and you need to be prepared to spend several thousand for a 3 stage amp with huge output tubes.

Same with single driver speakers, there are some amazing speakers from several hundred up to a few thousand, but go past that and you're looking at drivers that cost in the thousands... there is a big gap here too.

So for me it makes the value equation easy, I can't afford a SET amp with huge output tubes and trafos that cost as much as my current amp altogether, and I think that about $3k is max for a top performing pair of single driver speakers that doesn't get into the Feastrex/Phy/Lowther kind of pricing... so this is the arena I play in, and surpassing that is going to cost a lot more money that I don't have anyway.

 

[Rclark]

... I don't know, my experience is even the wealthier people I know or have known have simple, cheap desktop speakers at best. I have been in very nice homes with dedicated theaters, but overall I think audiophiles are pretty rare. How many years did it take this site to reach a million hits? Ten?

 I'm still curious to know the price differences between Jackman's "expensive" system and his "budget" system. Not to belabor the point, truly curious to see the price difference between "magic" and "not magic."

 I project my final system cost will be around 10K. Wow, never actually tallied it all up. If you had told me that two years ago I would have laughed.

 That's:

 Magnestand MMG's
 Emotiva ERC-2
 Emotiva XSP-1                       (not out yet-soon)
 Emotiva XDA-2                      (not out yet -soon)
 Empirical Audio Synchromesh (need the XDA)
 Hypex Ncore amps                 (arranged to purchase a build)
 balanced cables
 Epik Legend subwoofers          (icing on the cake)
 diy room treatments
 Omnimic                                (soon)


 That doesn't include pieces shed off that I already own. Here's my budget system I started with and quickly outgrew (aka system 2 to be):

 Sanus UF-27 stands (spent $250)
 GR Insignia mod speakers ($300 including tools)
 ERC-1
 Virtue Two.2 (still have, love)
 large, ported 10" Kef subwoofer (sitting in living room unused since Magnestands blow it away in quality)
 Mac UltraSilver++ cables
 Cryo'd copper speaker wire - JWaudio


  Forgot to mention my Warpspeed.. Not sure where that's going to sit. It might still be the main show if it's better than the XSP-1.

[Rclark]

 Before that I was listening to this dvd player ($20):



 with these ($60)

 

 I actually had two sets of those and ran both systems simulateously with a splitter for stereo.
 on some skinny cheap multimedia speaker stands. Before that, various cousins of the Altec Lansing and other cheap desktop speakers. Come a long way for sure.


 .. I intend to plug in the above system soon and do a shootout 


  - oh I also had some Sennheiser HD212 pro's that I loved quite a bit plugged into a CreativeLabs $200, very nice (DVD-A compatible) external soundcard. Now THAT was living. I also had two very nice pairs of open backed headphones that I liked even better.

[srb]

As mentioned the room, complexity, and extra bass that are normally associated with more $$ are all negatives, but I'd add "excessive detail" (all the current ribbon tweeter rage comes to mind) which takes away (distracts) from musicality (impressive, but too much candy for me).

Actually, I have found just the opposite regarding ribbon tweeters.  From my own experience with the Aurum Cantus and Fountek ribbons as well as the impressions reported by many people of the ones I haven't yet heard (RAAL and LCY), the ribbons seem to be light and airy and devoid of the exagerated "sizzle" that can be found in many dome tweeters.  In fact many people are at first taken back by the apparent lack of energy from the ribbons until they realize that the reduced sizzle is more natural.

Of course, in the context of Cheap and Cheerful, ribbon tweeters may not find their way into <$1K systems with the least expensive true ribbon being ~ $100 each, but it's still possible depending on your amplification and source choices.

Steve

[DaveC113]

Actually, I have found just the opposite regarding ribbon tweeters.  From my own experience with the Aurum Cantus and Fountek ribbons as well as the impressions reported by many people of the ones I haven't yet heard (RAAL and LCY), the ribbons seem to be light and airy and devoid of the exagerated "sizzle" that can be found in many dome tweeters.  In fact many people are at first taken back by the apparent lack of energy from the ribbons until they realize that the reduced sizzle is more natural.

Of course, in the context of Cheap and Cheerful, ribbon tweeters may not find their way into <$1K systems with the least expensive true ribbon being ~ $100 each, but it's still possible depending on your amplication and source choices.

Steve

I agree... I have heard very good ribbon tweets... and some not-so-good ones that did have a "sizzle". The good ones were all in speaker in the $5k+ range though, so yeah, not exactly cheap.

[TONEPUB]

truly curious to see the price difference between "magic" and "not magic."

I don't think there is a price (or any other) difference between "Magic" and "Not Magic"

It's a pretty continuous shade of grey.  The more you listen, the more you hear, potentially the more
you want, or you draw a line in the sand and say, "that's all I want."

I really don't feel there is a magic number after which, magic has been achieved.

[OzarkTom]

Here is my incredible cheap system that will surprise everyone here.

used Sonic impact amp-$100
used Magnavox CD player-$25
used Mordaunt Short MS 30's on Ebay-$65

Total $180

This system will image, have depth, and is magical sounding.

Here was those MS30 speakers on Ebay. Another geat speaker is the Modaunt Short MS35's.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item27c90057a2&item=170875967394&nma=true&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&rt=nc&si=z%252BD1Amv1MlJJoPTlR7WpnrFTGEE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[dB Cooper]

The most expensive audio system I have ever heard (probably in the $100K range, at the recent CAF) could be "blown away" by ten seconds of live music.

At some point you have to decide if it's about the equipment or the music for you. You can attend a helluva lot of concerts for $100,000.

I guarantee there are people here who enjoy their $5K systems more than some who are sitting there trying to decide if their garden-hose-sized power cable gives their preamp the "air" they just paid $1500 for.

On the other hand, that $100K Tidal system did sound pretty damn good...

[Early B.]

The most expensive audio system I have ever heard (probably in the $100K range, at the recent CAF) could be "blown away" by ten seconds of live music.

At some point you have to decide if it's about the equipment or the music for you. You can attend a helluva lot of concerts for $100,000.

Most live concerts aren't "high fidelity." If live music sounded so good, most of the CDs or albums in our collections would be live recordings.  It's the recordings, not the audio components, that are largely responsible for creating the live listening experience. 

[JerryM]

Live music and live concerts are two different things to me. David Sanborn playing the Gibson is not the same as David Sanborn un-amplified from six feet away. The former sounds great, the latter is probably unattainable in a home system.

I often wonder if Ceasar was an audiophool, and how cool it would have been to hear if he was. 

Have fun,

Jerry

[Letitroll98]

Yes, I agree Jerry.  Live music is not just live music anymore than a hifi system is a hifi system.  Do you mean Lollapalooza, a classical orchestra, a string quartet, amplified jazz at a concert venue, unamplified jazz at a small club, or what I thought was the best sound at show at the aforementioned CAF, Janel & Anthony in the hotel lobby.  The list is almost infinite in variation. 

This very topic is what got Pierre Sprey started recording at Mapleshade Records, he couldn't get the same sound from a recording of the group he just heard at the club.  So he started making recordings that sounded like live performances.  I like them, but they've had very mixed revues.  I agree with Early B. too, many recordings of live events are problematic, some do better than others.  Therefore we are not recreating live events in our homes, we are recreating a image of a live event, a very different thing.

[JLM]

I was being unfair to all ribbon tweeters, but the ones I've heard seem to have an exagerated emphasis (maybe to showcase how good they do sound).

As no recording/system will replace live performances, why fixate on it (and drop really serious coin)?  I see the recording/system to only "remind" us of what the original performance probably sounded like.  (Even the recording engineer was assuredly sitting in a booth or in a far corner of the venue listening via headphones/amps.)

The investment in my current main rig is about $5k.  HT rig is leftovers/cheap stuff (about $500 added).  The living room audio system is all leftovers (zero added).  I enjoy them all.

[orthobiz]

I have set up three stereos for my three daughters, all inexpensive but decent vintage stuff. I am always pleased with how well the stuff sounds despite the shoestring budget!

Paul

[dB Cooper]

Most live concerts aren't "high fidelity." If live music sounded so good, most of the CDs or albums in our collections would be live recordings.  It's the recordings, not the audio components, that are largely responsible for creating the live listening experience.

You have a point. I have certainly been to lots of amplified concerts- some sounded great, some sounded sh**ty. And partly as a result of this, people now expect the concert to sound like the recording, rather than the other way around, which upends the entire concept of "high fidelity". With sampling and lip syncing, this isn't super hard to do. Now that many people are accustomed to stealing their music, performers are being forced to go live, and maybe this will change.

However, there is still a live music aesthetic which isn't based on piping highly compressed audio through wireless mikes into some "mini PA system" puking its guts out being driven into 100% distortion making the sound 15dB louder than it needs to be. Some use amplification to reinforce the sound, not to overpower the audience. And there is still such a thing as acoustic  music. There is still a live experience. If it sounds good, it might be worth recording. If it sounds like crap, probably not so much.

Back on the OT, I maintain that there are many music lovers and audiophiles with modestly priced systems that enjoy their systems as much, if not more, than owners of megabuck systems.

[Early B.]

There have been times when I've listened to my wife's C&C system and asked myself, "Why did I spend so much money on my reference system?" 

Her system is right on the threshold of the $1,000 limit. She has Norh speakers because she thinks they're cute, a used tube CD player, and an Emotiva Mini X a-100 integrated amp.

[DaveC113]

I've been to a lot of live shows of many kinds and IMO it's a crapshoot what you're going to get as far as sound quality. Some venues have more or less invested in their sound systems, so it's not like "live sound" is a pinnacle of achievement for a home system, it is very rare for a PA system to offer anywhere close to the same SQ as a good home system. These venues are just setting up huge stereo systems and their results vary... and as far as reproducing the sound of a live instrument or vocals, most of the time a good home system will destroy a PA system for the same reasons.

[ratso]

the biggest single problem in this whole hobby is the pervasive belief that "well, A can't be as good as B because B is 12 times more expensive than A". as if salk's would sound twice as good by merely doubling the price? makes absolutely no sense but a lot of smart people feel otherwise. the problem is it is killing this industry (or at least pricing out a lot of customers who don't drive ferrari's).

[jcris]

For me it all comes down to what sounds good to you. I can see how some incredibly expensive systems may be challenged by something more reasonable. I fully believe that a lot of this avocation is smeared by marketing. Pick up a copy of "The Absolute Sound" and read it through, everything is written about with such hyperbole that their only goal seems to be adding confusion. Unfortunately that is what IMHO most folks base their choices on. As long as that goes on the value of DIY will be lost on the average consumer. There are so many variables too properly integrate into a system that retail choices and higher prices become more acceptable. Just my 2 cents.
John