[medium jim]

I don't want anyone banned!  It's just hard for me to understand how you could devote so much energy to something you have never heard.  Maybe it would be more useful to devote your time to hearing these amps. You did suggest the Foreplay preamp and I'm not sure I understand how you could do this without ever having heard the Ncore.

That's all, no big deal and I don't want to see you or anyone in this thread banned.

Thanks

J

Banned when not breaking any rules?  I recommended the Bottlehead as it is an inexpensive preamp that I have used with several different amps and it has performed admirably with all.  Moreover, with slight modifications is and can have a very black sound floor. 

I will also hazzard to bet that more than half of those who are posting haven't heard the Ncores yet as well.  But you are right, they probably are not going to be for me anyway....

Jim

[jackman]

Jim,

Do you even read this stuff?  I never said you or anyone should be banned. My only reference was in response to your post. Either way, I'm amazed you have so much to say about something you have never heard. Start another thread for speculators but I don't think you can contribute anything to this thread until you actually hear the Ncore. 

Why don't you start your own thread for wild speculators who have never heard the Ncore.  Heck, get your own circle, I'll even give you my vote if you promise to stay out of this thread.  I promise to stay out of yours.

Cheers

Jack

[medium jim]

Thanks jack, but I already have two circles where everyone is welcome!  I thought this was Jason's circle?

No problem, I will stop posting, but ask every other person who hasn't heard them to also stop posting. 

Jim

[jackman]

This isn't my circle and I don't even own the amp! You can do whatever you want as far as I am concerned, but numerous posts on an amp you have never heard seemed odd to me.  I just started this thread for people who did not want to post in the main fanboy thread. 

Technically, Jason started this thread when he kicked me out of th main thread.  I just came up with the catchy name!

Cheers

Jack

[genjamon]

Personally, I think it's valuable to have a thread devoted to tour impressions only and another like this one that should be about listening impressions outside the tour context. And it should most certainly be as balanced as possible with attempts, and I do mean attempts only, to be objective and cite both pros and cons. No one can be completely objective, no matter their perspective, so why criticize people for subjectivity as long as they can give some context that helps us to compare our subjectivity to theirs?

I don't want Jim to stop posting either, but I agree that a large portion of his posts have been unnecessarily antagonistic and somewhat passive aggressive.  Yes, challenging the opinions of others in a way that gives subtle digs at the amps in question, then at the end saying something like, "but believe me, I really want to give these a try and make up my mind"' strikes me as hollow and duplicitous. In a single message you can imply that you've already made up your mind and that you want to make up your mind.  Hard to have it both ways, and most people can see through that shit. I would be willing to guess that nearly one third of this entire thread are messages like this from Jim and the verbal fencing that follows.  There are precious few entries actually discussing the actual listening impressions of the amps.

As an example, I dare you to go back through the past several pages. Count the number of entries debating Jim's assertions verses the ones actually discussing my very real observations, pros and cons witnessed, and interest in tweaking ancillaries in my system to optimize the Ncore in my system.

Just sayin...

[genjamon]

And on that note, I have some updates for those interested.

I spent all last evening playing around and swapping tons of stuff in my system. I tried my kingrex preamp I just sold this morning, even hooked up my Onix SP3 using a special cable to be able to use it as a preamp. I swapped the Ampino back in and then back out. I made sure the amps had all been on and at idle for a while, so I wasn't comparing a cold amp to a warm one. I swapped interconnects and even played with which wall outlets which components were using.

Conclusions:

The Onix is really noisy as a preamp 

The Ampino is not even close to the same league as the Ncore. It has a warmth and a liveness in the midrange, but it also accentuates the high frequencies, an overall uneven up frequency response and way more distortion. Ncore just destroyed it in overall smoothness, micro and macro detail, imaging and soundstage, balanced frequency response and all. 

But Ncore still didn't have that magic midrange or quite the high frequency "sparkle". I was back where I started...

Then I swapped my copper interconnects made by Tuan here on AC (called Sweet Spot Reveal I think) over to Morrow MA2's.  Keep in mind that I had bought these last fall and did extensive comparisons with the SSR's. With the Ampino, the Morrows had a tipped up frequency response and a thin sound compared to the SSR'S, which had more body and also much more micro dynamic nuance and subtlety. They were key to getting that "magic" performance in the midrange and live energy from the Ampino. Morrows just didn't have that magic, we're more analytical and thin, despite having more air to them.

Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.

Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now.

Now, I'm not saying my search is over. I still might be interested in the right tube preamp eventually, or maybe going up the line in Morrow or even something else.  But my toe is tapping again for the first time in a while, and that's plenty enough for today 

[cab]

I made my own signal cable (the original from Hypex was a mogami, which was replaced by Hypex with one Bruno designed) and noticed a bit more on top where some have had issues. Perhaps trying your own cable there may be beneficial. You need the correct molex plug and pins, along with a decent crimp tool. I also replaced the power feed, which is 18awg with 16awg (16awg is the largest wire that will fit in the JST connector). Again, you need JST plug and pins and a crimp tool. Together they will cost you about $2.00. I can pass along the molex part numbers if anyone is interested.

[hifial]

Posted by genjamon: "Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.

Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now."

This is exactly what I and several others have tried to explain and have been dismissed as fanboys. 

[genjamon]

I just want to say that I never thought the posts over on the tour thread were too fanboyish.  I thought a number of the offered significant amounts of context for their impressions and weren't saying the Ncore were the best amps ever.  Not all of them, by any means, but quite a few and most of those that were more elaborate in their reviews.  Those were the ones that motivated me to put my cash down and give Ncore a try without benefit of hearing them first, not the ones that were clearly fanboys saying Ncore is be best ever.

And in my experience, you might have to play with things a good bit for Ncore to really strut its stuff in your system.  I feel like I'm now beginning to reach that stage, and have many more areas to explore before I'm done.  And it's certainly true that Ncore's strengths may not be what you need given your preferences and system goals.  I really doubt Ncore will extinguish all curiosity for me to try new things, and I would be surprised if there was ever a product in this category that came along and motivated all of us to give up our audiophilia nervosa.  Hobby addiction doesn't work like that!

[zybar]

And on that note, I have some updates for those interested.

I spent all last evening playing around and swapping tons of stuff in my system. I tried my kingrex preamp I just sold this morning, even hooked up my Onix SP3 using a special cable to be able to use it as a preamp. I swapped the Ampino back in and then back out. I made sure the amps had all been on and at idle for a while, so I wasn't comparing a cold amp to a warm one. I swapped interconnects and even played with which wall outlets which components were using.

Conclusions:

The Onix is really noisy as a preamp 

The Ampino is not even close to the same league as the Ncore. It has a warmth and a liveness in the midrange, but it also accentuates the high frequencies, an overall uneven up frequency response and way more distortion. Ncore just destroyed it in overall smoothness, micro and macro detail, imaging and soundstage, balanced frequency response and all. 

But Ncore still didn't have that magic midrange or quite the high frequency "sparkle". I was back where I started...

Then I swapped my copper interconnects made by Tuan here on AC (called Sweet Spot Reveal I think) over to Morrow MA2's.  Keep in mind that I had bought these last fall and did extensive comparisons with the SSR's. With the Ampino, the Morrows had a tipped up frequency response and a thin sound compared to the SSR'S, which had more body and also much more micro dynamic nuance and subtlety. They were key to getting that "magic" performance in the midrange and live energy from the Ampino. Morrows just didn't have that magic, we're more analytical and thin, despite having more air to them.

Well, things have certainly changed now with the Ncores. That live energy and magic is back, with benefit of all the awesomeness of the Ncores.

Just goes to show that system synergies can be everything. Seemingly small changes can make a surprising differences. And components that you had discounted in thorough previous comparisons can suddenly completely change what they offer give other changes in the system. I have learned these lessons in the past, and they're what led me to keep the Morrow cables despite not really liking them. I'm really glad I did and that I had them on hand to try now.

Now, I'm not saying my search is over. I still might be interested in the right tube preamp eventually, or maybe going up the line in Morrow or even something else.  But my toe is tapping again for the first time in a while, and that's plenty enough for today 

I use balanced Morrow MA6 IC's with the Ncore amps and think they are a nice match.

George

[ajst2duk]

This is reposted from another forum (me) so I didn't have to type it again - the main point is the sensitivity I have found with the Ncores in terms of system componments. I was mixed about the results I was getting with digital, however when I connected my TT via PS Audio GCPH via balanced to Ncores, I was stunned. Obviously I have some more tweaking with cables etc to get the digital side to a similar point but I'm much closer. Recently I moved my Teddydac back, it seems to have a better synergy with the system with Ncores. Anyway -

"Well - now that the amps have had time to warm up - settlle in - and after a couple of cheeky rums - I have this to say:

Digital front end - obviously needs some work

Vinyl front end - the experience of having firstly Yello (touch) followed by Kraftwerk (The Mix) at some considerable volume was an absolute stunner. Sitting in the living room with a wall of sound so pure and involving - and noticing that the curtains behind the ML1+ speakers were dancing to the music like they were puppets on strings. I walked outside to hear the whole house reverberating like a car with a massive sound system - all the windows were rattling.
The sound is not clinical, its accurate and not a trace of distortion, it is really like a straight wire from the stylus to the speakers. Power in absolutely epic proportions, these make the Bel Canto REF1000's I had soound weedy by comparison. I ran out of braveness in finding the point at which something would give, just clean involving pure musical power.

So that is tonights session over, anyone in the general vicinity of the F3 onramp probably would have got a dose, now I'll settle down to a couple of weeks of critical listening and see if I can lift my digital front end to a similar level.

The analogue specs are Ortofon M2 black via PS Audio via balanced into Plinius Pre then balanced into Ncore. The digital is SBT via SM via AudioGD REF5.2 via a long (3M) set of audioquest single ended RCA (into Plinius et al).

My gut feel is that these are ruthlessly revealing of source, no sauce with that sound, just added power. The sound coming from the turntable is liquid, powerful, and massive soundstage.

Rant off - time to give the neighbours a break and let my daughters get some sleep.

AJ"

[jtwrace]

No I don't need anyone to tell me what I like or not, but it never hurts to get a full and fair concensus.

Exactly why I started the tour.  Also, I'm sorry but I'd rather listen to 35+ people that I've sent it to then any reviewer.   

[medium jim]

Exactly why I started the tour.  Also, I'm sorry but I'd rather listen to 35+ people that I've sent it to then any reviewer.

Okay....understood loud and clear.

Jim

[zybar]

Exactly why I started the tour.  Also, I'm sorry but I'd rather listen to 35+ people that I've sent it to then any reviewer.

AMEN!!!

[medium jim]

I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living.  If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!

Jim

[jtwrace]

I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living.  If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!

Jim

Who are you referring to?  Tell your favorite reviewer to get a pair and get reviewing.  NOBODY is holding them back.

[JohnR]

I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living.  If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!

Jim

That makes no sense at all, Jim. The NCore 400 is a DIY module, reviewers don't generally review DIY stuff. No doubt there will be plenty of reviews of the Mola Mola and OEM versions in time. And, there must now be dozens of people who have heard the NCore now on Jason's tour, so it's not like there wasn't the opportunity for people that were interested.

[medium jim]

Who are you referring to?  Tell your favorite reviewer to get a pair and get reviewing.  NOBODY is holding them back.

Not my favorite reviewer, rather he is an AC member in good standing.  It just makes sense to utilize his expertise if he would be willing. 

Jim

[jtwrace]

Not my favorite reviewer, rather he is an AC member in good standing.  It just makes sense to utilize his expertise if he would be willing. 

Jim

Well, that's up to him not any of us but it still makes no sense to me

[mgalusha]

I find it rather telling that the powers that be are afraid of a review by someone who does it for a living.  If it truly was as advertised, I would want said review, hobbyist or not!

Exactly who are the powers that be?  Jan-Peter and Bruno at Hypex? I'm certain that they would happily sell a pair to Steven Stone or any other reviewer who would like a pair. Perhaps you missed the fact that Hypex will not sell the NC400's to OEM's, so why would someone who makes a living reviewing audio gear spend a lot of time on a DYI direct only product, it makes no sense at all. If Steven Stone wants to review a pair, I'll lend him mine, granted it's a long drive but we live in the same state at least. 

I'm guessing you have no idea how much time and effort reviewers put into even a basic review, it's not just a couple hours of listening and a quick write up, at least it's not for me and I don't make squat if I write something up, which happens from time to time.

I am 100% certain that when the commercial products based on the NC1200's hit the market there will be plenty of professional reviews. What is more relevant, the opinion of a few guys who are trying them on a system with gear that most cannot afford to own, or 35+ regular folks who have systems similar to what we might have. If none of the folks who have posted about the tour amps or the guys who have bought them unheard have systems that are similar to your own, then no, they are likely not relevant.

What is really telling is your seeming inability to accept that fact the everyone likes something different, it's not a fucking conspiracy. </rant-off>