LS6 & room acoustics

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Bizarroterl

LS6 & room acoustics
« on: 21 Jul 2012, 05:29 pm »
I have the parts (AVS123 cabinets & driver kit) for a pair of LS6s.  They've been waiting for a remodel, and I'm starting that design.  Below is a drawing of the finished floorplan for the LR/HT/listening room where I plan to put the LS6s.  They'll go on the 13' wall facing the couch.  The room has 8' ceilings and the back wall will have heavy curtains covering ~14' of windows.  Couch has a coffee table in from of it.  Floor is hardwood with a large rug w/padding.

I plan on the LS6s, a pair of A/V-1RS, and my existing Velodyne FSR18 (LFE only) and no center.  The room will be used for 75% HT and 25% listening.  HT display/electronics will go between the LS6s.  I may stick with a projector or if I have the $$$ go to a 75" LCD.

Since space is limited the LS6s cannot stick out into the room as much as would be considered optimal.  I'm thinking of some treatments behind the LS6s to overcome that.  Perhaps leaving the stud bays behind them open and filling them with 5" of cotton batts (http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/wall_insulation/ultratouch.htm?d=28).  The wall is a 2*4 so I'd use some trim and cloth (http://www.sewbatik.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=92) to pretty it up and improve the WAF.

Does this sound reasonable?  Should I consider acoustic treatments on the side walls?  For the dimensions given how far apart should I place the LS6s?



playntheblues

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Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #1 on: 21 Jul 2012, 05:32 pm »
My room is similar and I have my CLS 9's backed to the stair well and it works great.  It really helps in not loading the room.

Peter J

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Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #2 on: 21 Jul 2012, 06:48 pm »
Were it mine, I'd really look hard at a center channel. Can't say I've tried it without, but considering the amount of center channel info I hear on many movie soundtracks, particularly dialog, I would think the center would be an important element to the system. The most important by some peoples reckoning...quite a bit different than a 2 channel system.

I'd be interested to hear others points-of-view and experiences.

playntheblues

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Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #3 on: 21 Jul 2012, 07:17 pm »
a phantom center is pretty realistic, especially if your system images properly.  Even though the rear channels don't have a lot of information, what they do have would be missed.  Same goes for a sub, would you agree?

srb

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #4 on: 21 Jul 2012, 07:41 pm »
a phantom center is pretty realistic, especially if your system images properly.

That's true, but only for the person(s) in the center sweetspot.  If your HT has seating much off to the sides as well, those people won't hear center channel info emanating from the center.  A bit disconcerting on dialogue in particular.

Steve

kingdeezie

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Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #5 on: 21 Jul 2012, 09:42 pm »
I have the parts (AVS123 cabinets & driver kit) for a pair of LS6s.  They've been waiting for a remodel, and I'm starting that design.  Below is a drawing of the finished floorplan for the LR/HT/listening room where I plan to put the LS6s.  They'll go on the 13' wall facing the couch.  The room has 8' ceilings and the back wall will have heavy curtains covering ~14' of windows.  Couch has a coffee table in from of it.  Floor is hardwood with a large rug w/padding.

I plan on the LS6s, a pair of A/V-1RS, and my existing Velodyne FSR18 (LFE only) and no center.  The room will be used for 75% HT and 25% listening.  HT display/electronics will go between the LS6s.  I may stick with a projector or if I have the $$$ go to a 75" LCD.

Since space is limited the LS6s cannot stick out into the room as much as would be considered optimal.  I'm thinking of some treatments behind the LS6s to overcome that.  Perhaps leaving the stud bays behind them open and filling them with 5" of cotton batts (http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/wall_insulation/ultratouch.htm?d=28).  The wall is a 2*4 so I'd use some trim and cloth (http://www.sewbatik.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=92) to pretty it up and improve the WAF.

Does this sound reasonable?  Should I consider acoustic treatments on the side walls?  For the dimensions given how far apart should I place the LS6s?


Hello, I have had the LS6s for quite a while, with a room the same width as yours, but about six feet less depth wise. I have struggled for years to get them to sound good.

The first thing is, you are going to greatly compromise your sound if you put the speakers on the wall that you want.

For starters, placing the speakers too close to a wall behind them kills depth and imaging. Even if you put bass traps behind them (I tried this on the long wall), you'll fix the bass loading issues, but you'll have zero depth. Everything will sound two dimensional, compared to pulling them out from the wall.

Secondly, your head can't be that close to the wall behind it without significant bass trapping. Think GIK Monster Traps. I had my speakers this way before, with monster traps behind my head. It helps tremendously, but distancing yourself from boundaries is without equal. Distancing yourself from boundaries and placing bass traps is doubly effective. 

Placing them on the wall that Playntheblues recommended is much better. The one where the stairwell is, is perfect. This way you can get the speakers and your head away from walls that will kill your sound.

You will also need significant room treatments regardless of which way you position your speakers. I currently have over 20 bass traps in my 13x18 room, and I still need a few more to really nail the clarity that these speakers can deliver. Not to mention I have some diffusion around as well. These speakers pressurize rooms pretty easily, especially with bass. You need to control it.

Skip the 73 inch TV. A TV between the speakers will cause hard reflections and destroy your sound. It will also be more expensive, needlessly, then a modest projector setup. Get an electric or manual pull screen and a projector, and be happier.

As for the center channel business, in my experience, I have not found a suitable surround sound processor or receiver that gives me the naturalness, transparency, and transient speed that my DAC, tube preamp, and tube amps provide. 

I actually watch movies in two channel now, and I am much happier then ever before. Yes, I lose that discreet surround sound, but I don't miss it for a second.

When properly positioned, the LS6s with some great two channel equipment can provide a hugely immersive, three dimensional soundfield.

The drawback to this is that people sitting on the far sides, get less then ideal sound in terms of positioning and staging, but with the acoustic treatments, they are still getting a highly natural, dynamic, and transparent quality to all parts of the movie soundtrack. Since the room is narrow, being only 13 feet wide, the pull is not as drastic as you would think, and no one has minded that has been over to watch a movie or sporting event.

Im starting to babble, so I'll leave it at this. Hope any of it helped, and good luck!  :thumb: 

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #6 on: 21 Jul 2012, 10:09 pm »
Putting the LS6s on the wall with the stairwell isn't really an option, unless I place them about 5' apart.  Even so, that's a main thoroughfare and they would have to be even closer to the wall than where I initially proposed.

kingdeezie

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Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #7 on: 21 Jul 2012, 10:28 pm »
Putting the LS6s on the wall with the stairwell isn't really an option, unless I place them about 5' apart.  Even so, that's a main thoroughfare and they would have to be even closer to the wall than where I initially proposed.

What about the wall opposite the stairwell??

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #8 on: 22 Jul 2012, 04:11 pm »
It has a fireplace.  The 13' wall is really the only place I can put them.

Cheeseboy

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jul 2012, 09:13 pm »
Is the fireplace centered?

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #10 on: 23 Jul 2012, 10:15 pm »
It's offset.  Trust me, the only wall is the 13' one.

Should I sell the LS6 parts and buy a Bose Lifestyle?   :cyclops:

S Clark

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Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #11 on: 23 Jul 2012, 10:45 pm »
It's offset.  Trust me, the only wall is the 13' one.

Should I sell the LS6 parts and buy a Bose Lifestyle?   :cyclops:
Absolutely yes.  I'll give you $11.13 for the kit and cabinets and through in a Bang and Olafson turntable that should fit nicely with your new Bose.  :thumb:

nickd

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #12 on: 23 Jul 2012, 10:54 pm »
In your room I would put 3 ea of Dannys O-3's across the front. the LS-6' might sound like giant headphones the close too you. They have deep cabinets and need to be pulled out a little from the wall.

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #13 on: 24 Jul 2012, 08:42 pm »
I'd like to stay with the LS6s if I possibly can.  I've waited too long to give up now.

I don't plan on putting them up against the wall, but 12" to 16" away is very possible.  Would treating the wall behind them as I described help in making it nearly equivalent to being 3'?

Cheeseboy

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #14 on: 24 Jul 2012, 09:01 pm »
What about the other way? 

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #15 on: 24 Jul 2012, 09:24 pm »
What would that give me?   :scratch:  They would have a curtain behind them & no way to apply any more acoustic control.

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #16 on: 24 Jul 2012, 09:25 pm »
After I have everything together I'll start looking at Danny's center for the LS6/LS9.

Cheeseboy

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #17 on: 24 Jul 2012, 09:44 pm »
Putting the LS6s on the wall with the stairwell isn't really an option, unless I place them about 5' apart.  Even so, that's a main thoroughfare and they would have to be even closer to the wall than where I initially proposed.

I think you could go 4 ft out from the stairwell or more and accomodate the traffic and get the imaging you are looking for.  You need about 9 ft from the front of the speaker to your ears for optimal listening.   You can be less.   

I guess what I'm trying to say is the same thing that King pointed out.   Out from the wall the imaging is incredible.  Please try moving the furniture around that way before you give into a compromise. 

mlbrand

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #18 on: 24 Jul 2012, 11:51 pm »
I'd like to stay with the LS6s if I possibly can.  I've waited too long to give up now.

I don't plan on putting them up against the wall, but 12" to 16" away is very possible.  Would treating the wall behind them as I described help in making it nearly equivalent to being 3'?

Yes, If you have to put them on that wall, acoustical treatment behind them will help a lot, the more the better. Pull the LS-6's away from the wall as much as possible. Some type of auto-equalizer system (Audyssey, etc.) will also help a LOT with your bass management, and is highly recommended for your setup.

Also, acoustical treatment on the wall behind your couch will help a lot as well.   Bass traps in as many corners as possible would also be very helpful.

Bizarroterl

Re: LS6 & room acoustics
« Reply #19 on: 25 Jul 2012, 04:29 pm »
No matter how I go there will be compromises. 

I took a closer look at possibly moving furniture around and placing the LS6s on the stairwell wall, only out 4 to 5'.  It turns out the couch is too long.  It's nearly 12' long - a 5 part couch with each section reclinable and the end ones are powered.  The chair is a matching powered recliner.  We spent a lot on them and the WAF is zero for replacing them.

My pre is a Marantz AV7005 so I do have Audyssey capability.

I'll plan on bass traps in both corners.  I'll have to adjust there a little as the A/V-1RS will have to be closer to the rear wall than I'd like.

How far apart should I place the LS6s?