TBI Millenia MG3 Class BD Integrated Audio Amplifier..A Modern Day Giant Killer!

OzarkTom · « **Reply #500 on:** 9 Dec 2012, 07:44 pm »

If you have it Morgan, also check out Boz Scaggs, Speak Low CD. It is a killer on the vocals. I also enjoy this song very much, "God Bless the Child" - Jill Scott, Al Jarreau, George Benson collaboration. The TBI shines greatly on this song.

Buddy Holly's "TRue Love Ways" with the Ray Rllis Orchestra is really incredible. This is one of the most natural orchestra recordings that I have ever listened to. Even Duke of Audiokinesis wanted to steal that one off of me when I was in Dallas at the LSAF in 2010. One big reason for the quality back in 1958, they used the most famous tube mics of all time, the AKG C12. This original 1953 tube mic is still sought after by many recording studios today. AKG finally reproduced this mic and sells it for $5K, but many in the industry stills prefer the original.

I picked up the Barbara Streisand Christmas CD today for 5 bucks at Wally world, so I will check out that Barbara Streisand cut later tonight.

morganc · « **Reply #501 on:** 10 Dec 2012, 02:55 am »

Unfortunately I don't have any of these songs:(. I will pick a few favs and go from there.......

OzarkTom · « **Reply #502 on:** 17 Dec 2012, 11:42 pm »

Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm

rodge827 · « **Reply #503 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 12:35 am »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2012, 11:42 pm

Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm

And well deserved it is!

Freo-1 · « **Reply #504 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 01:51 am »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2012, 11:42 pm

Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm

+1.

OzarkTom · « **Reply #505 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 02:35 am »

Not to change the subject, but Tri-Art Audio from Canada has recently switched from the Tri-Path chip to the same TI chip that TBI is using. Below is the Avatar Acoustics room at RMAF using all Tri-Art electronics except the AMR DP777 Dac. 6moons gave this room one of the best at the show with the new Avalon loudspeakers. If you know how picky Darren from Avatar is, you know that these amps are great also. Tri-Art uses concrete cabinets and sells their 25 watter for $1995.

Or buy the TBI for $500 and build your own concrete cabinets.

wisnon · « **Reply #506 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 03:30 pm »

I will test the TBI amp over the holidays on a pair of 100db DIY speakers my pal has (in France). I will also demo his Mytek DAC vs my Lampizator L4 Dac and use PCM and DSD files via a MB Air computer with a Lindemann DDC and an iFi Audio iUSB power. Should be fun.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #507 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 06:36 pm »

The TBI amp just showed up, I will unpack it and test it out soon, thanks for the opportunity to check it out!

brother love · « **Reply #508 on:** 18 Dec 2012, 10:20 pm »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2012, 11:42 pm

Positive Feedback has just given the TBI Millenia MG3 a best of the best awrd for 2012. An award that is well deserved.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue64/awards.htm

Well deserved. Thanks Tom for the article.

morganc, any final impressions forthcoming ?

morganc · « **Reply #509 on:** 19 Dec 2012, 01:57 am »

Yes, I've just been too busy before the holidays to type my thoughts up, but I will have more to come soon. Though, now I will say again that this is a killer amp for $500.

wisnon · « **Reply #510 on:** 19 Dec 2012, 09:14 am »

I would love to see a shootout with the other budget marvel, the NuForce DDA-100, which is a power DAC.

A discussion about the different design approaches taken would be interesting.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #511 on:** 19 Dec 2012, 04:27 pm »

Hooked it up with the SMPS this morning, and wow!... this is an amazing piece of equipment for the price. Does it come close to my Aikido/EL34 SET? Almost!... but my amps have about $2k in parts in them, just the one set of coupling caps cost 1/2 as much as the TBI.

Anyway, the TBI gets at least 90% of the way there vs. my amps and it has a lot more power than an EL34 SET. Using my Schiit Bifrost DAC as the source at the standard 2V RMS output the TBI's volume control is at 9 o'clock for dBs in the mid 90's or so.

I'll be switching back and forth with the amps a bit and will post more impressions, but I have to say Ozark Tom was right, this is a ridiculous bargain and I don't think "Giant Killer" is much of an overstatement. The differences between this $500 amp (ok, more with the mods) and a $5000 amp could only be justified by a fairly wealthy and picky individual. I'm not sure, but I'd guess the TBI would be as good or even a better choice than most tube amps built to a reasonable price point.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #512 on:** 20 Dec 2012, 06:01 am »

Volume tracking is off, there's a 1-2 dB more coming from the right speaker. I don't have a meter, so that's just a guess. As you turn down the pot the left channel switches off before the right as well. So the soundstage is off center just a little bit, more at low volumes. For now I have Foobar's preamp set to -20dB, which helps. I feel like this amp could use a passive preamp, maybe even a zero gain tube buffer to get a decent volume control and source selection. I'd guess a better volume control would improve the sound quality as well. I can't find specs for input sensitivity, but I'm guessing it's pretty low based on how low I have to have the volume control set. I was going to try driving it with the Aikido but adding 20 dB more gain is really excessive. I might try it anyway since the Aikido has it's own volume control...

It is nice having an amp with plenty of power though, it plays clean at high volumes and has plenty of headroom with my speakers. The sound quality is really very good, usually digital amps annoy me after a while, but the TBI seems to have eliminated that for the most part... I still feel there is more listening fatigue vs my SET, but it is also true the Omega single drivers have a somewhat forward sound. The imaging and soundstage are very comparable to what my SET produces, the speakers disappear with this amp running them, which is good.

I also have a Trends T-amp, which has gotten some good reviews. The Trends isn't even in the same league as the TBI and comparison would be ridiculous, but here goes... The Trends is harsh by comparison and after a short while you're turning the volume way down or reaching for the off switch. The Trends doesn't make the speakers disappear like a good amp should, and there's always the feeling that something is just off... which it is. The TBI is much closer to my SET in sound quality compared to the trends, which is very, very far off.

It does seem like this amp is an anomaly for the price, assuming you have speakers that work with the amp you might have to spend A LOT more money to get anything better, and I'd bet it's possible you could spend 2-3x the price for an inferior amp. I think TBI should put out a higher end version with a nicer chassis, volume control and source selection

wushuliu · « **Reply #513 on:** 20 Dec 2012, 07:28 am »

LOL, I bet TBI is working hard on a pricier version this very moment, if not several. I'm sure he never guessed after 4 years that amp would get plucked out of obscurity and become an audiophile darling...

@Dave - very accurate description of the Tripath sound via the Trends. Those chips just sound not quite right.

electriceye · « **Reply #514 on:** 21 Dec 2012, 06:55 am »

Not sure if it's been done yet or not but wondering if anyone has compared this to tube integrated amps under the $1000 (maybe a little more) dollar mark that are rated pretty highly. I'm considering Vista Audio, Primaluna, Eastern Electric, Napa Acoustics but wondering if this would be the better bang for the buck, I've lately had an affinity towards tubes.

Trying to get the something to power my tektons that will be a clear upgrade over my vintage tubes I had before.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #515 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 03:02 am »

I tried the TBI out with the Aikido driving it, and it made for a nice improvement, subtle but worthwhile. The music is easier to listen to with the Aikido in place, it adds some texture and reduces some of the harshness in the high freqs that cause fatigue. The Aikido tested out to ~.05% THD and freq response is ruler flat, so it's not adding much 2nd order distortion. So I would say that a tube buffer with a good volume control and source selection would be a great addition to the TBI as long as the tube section isn't going to color the music much. I think you'd need a really good pre or it could make things worse.

Next, I switched back to the EL34 SET, the Aikido drives it directly so there's no driver section in the amp.... just EL34s (I'm using Gold Lion KT77s right now) vs the TBI. Again, the TBI is close, but there's a really noticeable improvement going back to the SET, the soundstage is bigger and more 3D, tonality of vocals and instruments is more real, and the excitement factor is up a couple notches, the music just draws you in more with the SET.

The SET I own is built with high end parts, the power supply is all Clarity TC series film caps with a custom electraprint choke. The OPTs are James. This would be a very expensive amp, probably in the $3k range retail. Same with the Aikido preamp... so the fact that the TBI did as good as it did going up against gear that cost many times more was actually a shock, it's hard to believe the value for the money this amp offers. I was expecting something much closer to the performance level of my Trends T-amp, and as I said, it was closer to the SET than the Trends.

One suggestion is the Cardas binding posts are pretty big and clunky for a small amp and don't have a hole in the post for bare wire connections, I'd go with the Pomona 3770 gold plated copper posts instead and save some cash too, they are about $36 for 4.

OzarkTom · « **Reply #516 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 03:44 am »

Thank you Dave for such a detailed reiew and for joining the tour. For those that dream of high priced SET amps and tube pre-amps that they just cannot afford, the TBI is a great alternatie.

I have compared the TBI to the 40 watt Jolida 202CRC integrated at about $1K, and the TBI is much more open and detailed. If the tube amp is conventional Class AB, I believe that the TBI will beat it.

Now who's next?

tabrink · « **Reply #517 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 04:06 am »

I could not agree more!

Tried to like the Dalaudio a lot but kept coming back to the TBI.. Not going to worry about this anymore!

Quote from: OzarkTom on 22 Dec 2012, 03:44 am

Thank you Dave for such a detailed reiew and for joining the tour. For those that dream of high priced SET amps and tube pre-amps that they just cannot afford, the TBI is a great alternatie.

I have compared the TBI to the 40 watt Jolida 202CRC integrated at about $1K, and the TBI is much more open and detailed. If the tube amp is conventional Class AB, I believe that the TBI will beat it.

Now who's next?

Mister Pig · « **Reply #518 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 03:00 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 20 Dec 2012, 06:01 am

Volume tracking is off, there's a 1-2 dB more coming from the right speaker. I don't have a meter, so that's just a guess. As you turn down the pot the left channel switches off before the right as well. So the soundstage is off center just a little bit, more at low volumes. For now I have Foobar's preamp set to -20dB, which helps. I feel like this amp could use a passive preamp, maybe even a zero gain tube buffer to get a decent volume control and source selection. I'd guess a better volume control would improve the sound quality as well. I can't find specs for input sensitivity, but I'm guessing it's pretty low based on how low I have to have the volume control set. I was going to try driving it with the Aikido but adding 20 dB more gain is really excessive. I might try it anyway since the Aikido has it's own volume control...

It is nice having an amp with plenty of power though, it plays clean at high volumes and has plenty of headroom with my speakers. The sound quality is really very good, usually digital amps annoy me after a while, but the TBI seems to have eliminated that for the most part... I still feel there is more listening fatigue vs my SET, but it is also true the Omega single drivers have a somewhat forward sound. The imaging and soundstage are very comparable to what my SET produces, the speakers disappear with this amp running them, which is good.

I also have a Trends T-amp, which has gotten some good reviews. The Trends isn't even in the same league as the TBI and comparison would be ridiculous, but here goes... The Trends is harsh by comparison and after a short while you're turning the volume way down or reaching for the off switch. The Trends doesn't make the speakers disappear like a good amp should, and there's always the feeling that something is just off... which it is. The TBI is much closer to my SET in sound quality compared to the trends, which is very, very far off.

It does seem like this amp is an anomaly for the price, assuming you have speakers that work with the amp you might have to spend A LOT more money to get anything better, and I'd bet it's possible you could spend 2-3x the price for an inferior amp. I think TBI should put out a higher end version with a nicer chassis, volume control and source selection

Hi Dave,

My experiences with the TBI parallel what you have heard also. I think the MG3 is a killer amp at its price point, but it is not perfect. I also find that my Electra Print 300 Custom SET and PVA pre-amp is better in the areas described, but the cost is substantially higher. Heck a pair of the Sophia Carbon Princess cost more than the TBI amp itself.

I still feel there is more listening fatigue vs my SET, but it is also true the Omega single drivers have a somewhat forward sound.

This is a point I would want to mention though. I use a pair of Sachiko Double Horn speakers with first generation Fostex 208 Sigma drivers. I think the single driver speakers are better suited for SET amplification than the TBI is. It is not that tthe TBI/Single Driver combo sounds bad in any respect, but its probably not the most synergistic match. The TBI needs a speaker that does not have some of the peakiness in the upper mids that a full range driver does, and perhaps a bit smoother high frequency curve. I bet a pair of LS3/5A monitors of any iteration would be magical on the TBI. Or perhaps one of the entry level Tannoy dual concentric speakers. But for single driver speakers SET will always be the King.

I do concur that the TBI is a wonderful amplifier, I cannot think of a better way to get into high quality audio playback for short green than this amp.

Regards
Mister Pig

Freo-1 · « **Reply #519 on:** 22 Dec 2012, 03:16 pm »

Thanks to Dave and Mr. Pig for some insightful observations with the TBI. I also noticed that the TBI performance is improved with the tubed C/J clone preamp as opposed to direct from the source.

Jan informed me about a recommendation for the TBI when listening to classical music. It seems that the TBI will perfrom smoother with less glare when powered by a good 12 V battery vice a 24 V source. Sure enough, this again is sage advice (provided your speakers can support the reduced power). The sound is cleaner with the 12 V source on classical, no question.

While the TBI is not going to replace the Pass Labs XA 30.5 as my reference, it is a outstanding value at it's price point, and with the right speakers, will provide much enjoyment.