[trackball02]

I would like to thank abernardi for his time, access to his system, and critical comments. We really ran the TBI through its paces primarily using the battery. The comments he listed represented the consensus of both of us using two very different systems and rooms.

My system includes: Harman Kardon T60, Grado Reference Master and Musical Surroundings Nova Phenomena preamp, HP dedicated music server using the USB output to Eastern Electric MiniMax Plus DAC, AVA Avastar Preamp, AVA Ultravalve, Dal Audio Gainclone, Zu Soul Superflys Mrk 1-B, and Zu Undertone powered sub. Speaker cables were Morrow Audio SP5. All amps tested used the Preamp (the TBI volume was turned all of the way up). The gainclone by Dal Audio was mentioned by me in an older posting and was custom built for the 16 ohm Superflys. The price of the gainclone was $500, which provides a good price point comparison to the TBI.

Both of our systems are similar in that we have very efficient speakers, and the TBI had more than sufficient power.

As far as the TBI, it did somethings quite right. Very detailed such as fingers on a fret board which gives a holographic quality, strong bass and midrange, very quiet and on some recordings a very nice sound stage and pin point instrument placement. These qualities are also present with low volume listening.  The weakness as described previously with a lighter body, to me, is a real drawback. For example, with acoustic bass and piano, the detailed remained but the sound stage narrowed. On the other hand, the higher frequencies were quite strong  pleasing and accurate.

In summary, the TBI really has great features, and performs exceptionally well given its price point. It will sound quite real on some music and slightly artificial on others. Kind of like a dish spiked with MSG. On the other hand, the gainclone from top to bottom did an exceptional job in delivering a consistent and pleasing sound regardless of what was being played. The gainclone was not perfect but I think I can live with the gainclone and will not be replacing it with the TBI.

We spent less time with the Ultravalve and Dodd tube amps in this shoot out since these amps are outside the TBI price point. However we both agreed when the Ultravalve was inserted, there was a pleasing quality with more of a sense of realism as if the musicians were voluntarily playing and not being forced to do so. Less of an artificial presentation.

Thank you Tom for including me in this tour. abernardi and I am grateful for this opportunity.

[DaveC113]

abernardi and trackball's opinion are exactly my current opinion wrt every class D amp I've ever heard. TBH the more positive reviews have surprised me so I'm sure it's better than most, but I have heard my speakers with a modified Trends and a Virtue amp and I think they are both very poor amplifiers despite their mostly good reviews.

[Freo-1]

abernardi and trackball's opinion are exactly my current opinion wrt every class D amp I've ever heard. TBH the more positive reviews have surprised me so I'm sure it's better than most, but I have heard my speakers with a modified Trends and a Virtue amp and I think they are both very poor amplifiers despite their mostly good reviews.

 
Well, as I always say with audio, it’s “horses for courses”, or caveat emptor, as the case may be.
 It’s good to get the amp out on tour and get a diverse set of opinions/feedback.  Personally, the TBI may be the only Class D amp I have auditioned that did not have me running for the OFF switch all the time. In general, I have never liked the Class D sound, and still generally do not care for it personally.  Other people are very happy with their Class D amps, and that is fine.  It’s all about synergy in a given audio system.

 I continue to fine the TBI very enjoyable for rock/pop/oldies type recordings.  I find that with classical; however, I prefer the more laid back presentation of the First Watt M2.  The M2 just seems to be a better match with my speakers, which sport SEAS Excel drivers.

 Again, the take away is this:  “The TBI deserves a serious audition for any low wattage application”.  At its price point, it’s very hard to beat, and performs very well compared to a variety of other low power amps  up to several times its asking price. 
 

[wisnon]

So trackball2 and I got together today and put this amp through its paces.  He brought over the TBI and his similarly priced gainclone amp.  I had my Virtue Sensation 901 with the Dodd tube buffer standing by.  Now, as I've mentioned in many other posts, my system isn't completely dialed in, I still need to tamp down the room, its wood floors and big window make for a lot of strong reflections.  As a result the high end is a bit emphasized and can get a bit of glare.  Why is treating the room so much less sexy than buying the latest, greatest, thingamajig?     My speakers don't help.  As I've also mentioned, these are the best speakers I've been able to get into my system, but they have a Heil type AMT and they go way up there, so that doesn't help the room.

What type of AMT speakers are thes? Make and model?

What I do know of the Oskars is that the AMT drivers (dipole implementation) dont like to have anything solid structure (wall, etc) within 2 feet on either side of them.

[Mister Pig]

I would like to thank abernardi for his time, access to his system, and critical comments. We really ran the TBI through its paces primarily using the battery. The comments he listed represented the consensus of both of us using two very different systems and rooms.

My system includes: Harman Kardon T60, Grado Reference Master and Musical Surroundings Nova Phenomena preamp, HP dedicated music server using the USB output to Eastern Electric MiniMax Plus DAC, AVA Avastar Preamp, AVA Ultravalve, Dal Audio Gainclone, Zu Soul Superflys Mrk 1-B, and Zu Undertone powered sub. Speaker cables were Morrow Audio SP5. All amps tested used the Preamp (the TBI volume was turned all of the way up). The gainclone by Dal Audio was mentioned by me in an older posting and was custom built for the 16 ohm Superflys. The price of the gainclone was $500, which provides a good price point comparison to the TBI.

Both of our systems are similar in that we have very efficient speakers, and the TBI had more than sufficient power.

As far as the TBI, it did somethings quite right. Very detailed such as fingers on a fret board which gives a holographic quality, strong bass and midrange, very quiet and on some recordings a very nice sound stage and pin point instrument placement. These qualities are also present with low volume listening.  The weakness as described previously with a lighter body, to me, is a real drawback. For example, with acoustic bass and piano, the detailed remained but the sound stage narrowed. On the other hand, the higher frequencies were quite strong  pleasing and accurate.

In summary, the TBI really has great features, and performs exceptionally well given its price point. It will sound quite real on some music and slightly artificial on others. Kind of like a dish spiked with MSG. On the other hand, the gainclone from top to bottom did an exceptional job in delivering a consistent and pleasing sound regardless of what was being played. The gainclone was not perfect but I think I can live with the gainclone and will not be replacing it with the TBI.

We spent less time with the Ultravalve and Dodd tube amps in this shoot out since these amps are outside the TBI price point. However we both agreed when the Ultravalve was inserted, there was a pleasing quality with more of a sense of realism as if the musicians were voluntarily playing and not being forced to do so. Less of an artificial presentation.

Thank you Tom for including me in this tour. abernardi and I am grateful for this opportunity.

Before you send it off I would strongly recommend you take the time to run the TBI as a stand alone integrated. I did not like the amplifier hooked up to my pre either, I hear many of the same things you do. If you do this and get an appreciable change in sound, for the better or worse, it will validate others observations on what the amp is capable of and the best way to install it in a system. So far there are those who say it should be run as an integrated only, and another member who thinks it benefits from a pre-amp in front of it.

So would you take the time to do this for the forum?

Regards
Mister Pig

[Freo-1]

Before you send it off I would strongly recommend you take the time to run the TBI as a stand alone integrated. I did not like the amplifier hooked up to my pre either, I hear many of the same things you do. If you do this and get an appreciable change in sound, for the better or worse, it will validate others observations on what the amp is capable of and the best way to install it in a system. So far there are those who say it should be run as an integrated only, and another member who thinks it benefits from a pre-amp in front of it.

So would you take the time to do this for the forum?

Regards
Mister Pig

An excellent observation, Mr P!

I have tried a number of hookups to the TBI.  When I tried a solid state preamp (Pass Labs X 2.5), it was not nearly as good as running a Wavelength Audio DAC directly to the unit.  The only preamp that (to me) worked out well was  a Conrad Johnson clone (with a pair of  12AX7 tubes per side).  That preamp added some 3D and smoothed out the HF with the TBI (much like the Wavelength DAC did).
 
I think it is safe to say in general thee less devices in thee loop between the source and speakers, the higher the probability the sound will be to ones liking.  So adding a preamp for most systems my hinder the TBI's ability to provide optimum performance.

[OzarkTom]

I am not here to make any excuses for the TBI, but in my 32 years experience, I never heard a solid state amp to tame the AMT Heil tweeters. In fact, I never heard any tube amps tame it.

A close friend of mine back in the early 80's used those tweeters, but they were heavily modified. He was more of a solid state fan than a tube fan when I was a dealer, I took numerous solid state amps over, Acoustat, Bedini, Sumo, Bryston, Threshold, Perraux, and more, but those tweeters always burned my ears off. We finally tried Marantz 8B's, that came the closest, but I always heard the metallic sound of those metal drivers. I wound up taking in a couple of pairs of the ESS AMt-1B speakers over the years, and I never had any luck in taming those highs or the boomy bass.

Speed forward to the RMAF 2011 audio show and lo and behold, the Heil rep was staying the same hotel my wife and I were. I guess I had figured this company was no longer, but I was wrong. I hunted down their room, figuring by now they had tamed the high end. I stepped into their room and was out of there in three seconds. If I had stay any longer, I would have had a splitting headache.

On Heil tweeters, SS is still definitely a no-go IMO, no matter how expensive of an amp you try.

[trackball02]

Excellent  point, Mr. Pig. We did not try to run the TBI as a stand alone integrated. It would have been hard to do a comparison since we compared 2 integrated and 4 amps. Our method was to use two different pre-amps (either Dodd or AVA) and just swap out the amp and keep everything the same. Remotes were used to equalize volume as close as possible. We found that our conclusions were very consistent in two very different systems.

I never head a Heil before this weekend. They can really energize the room and are quite revealing. Careful system matching is required to get the best sound.

Unfortunately, the TBI was shipped out last night to morganc. I hope the other tour members will try it as a stand alone integrated.

[OzarkTom]

Unfortunately, the TBI was shipped out last night to morganc. I hope the other tour members will try it as a stand alone integrated.

Mr. Pig is right.

IMHO, unless you are using a $4-10K Tube  preamp and a $.5-1K IC, make sure you try the TBI as a stand alone integrated. That way your preamp and IC does not take away from the sound of the TBI. And even if you have that high of quality components, try the TBI as a stand alone integrated anyway. No pre or IC is perfect. This is much closer to a straight wire with gain.

[Rclark]

I actually did try it as an integrated in my living room the first night after changing fuses cause that's where I had everything set up. I didn't notice any difference between that and wide open through the warpspeed.

[morganc]

I do have a very nice Pre in my system, the Allnic L-3000, and I will still try the amp both with and without the Allnic.  I also have 101 dB speakers it should be interesting to hear this amp in my system vs quite nice SET amps......

[OzarkTom]

I do have a very nice Pre in my system, the Allnic L-3000, and I will still try the amp both with and without the Allnic.  I also have 101 dB speakers it should be interesting to hear this amp in my system vs quite nice SET amps......

That should be a great trial, it sounds like you have quite the system.

The amp should be there tomorrow.

[abernardi]

What type of AMT speakers are thes? Make and model?

What I do know of the Oskars is that the AMT drivers (dipole implementation) dont like to have anything solid structure (wall, etc) within 2 feet on either side of them.

They are Avlar Prodigy speakers.  Avlar developed their own AMT based on the Heil.  This particular model has the AMT which crosses over at 500Hz to a SEAS 8" woofer.  And yes, no walls near them.  Oh, and they're not a dipole implementation, they're in a box like a regular tweeter but with a huge waveguide, almost a horn.

[abernardi]

I am not here to make any excuses for the TBI, but in my 32 years experience, I never heard a solid state amp to tame the AMT Heil tweeters. In fact, I never heard any tube amps tame it.

I hear you (pun intended).  IMHO, Avlar has done an excellent job with this design, but they aren't Heils, they're the same idea, folded ribbon, etc.  But it's an updated design.  It's true I haven't settled these into my room yet, but with the right room treatment and probably biamping, I'm confident I will get there.  I know they got it there in the showroom.  I've never heard anything more realistic.

Speed forward to the RMAF 2011 audio show and lo and behold, the Heil rep was staying the same hotel my wife and I were. I guess I had figured this company was no longer, but I was wrong. I hunted down their room, figuring by now they had tamed the high end. I stepped into their room and was out of there in three seconds. If I had stay any longer, I would have had a splitting headache.

Yeah, I went into the Heil room at T.H.E. Show at Newport Beach this year and I had the same experience.  I don't think the new ESS has really made any significant changes to the design and nobody seemed all that enthusiastic about the product.

[wisnon]

LoL

ESS is NOT Heil AMT. The latter is a Swiss company and the designer there was the executor of Oskar Heil's will.

The design has long been updated from the ESS model (Dr Heil working with Martin). The secret sauce is the material used in the diaphragm.

Check out http://www.precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheil.htm

I have the Syrinx and the Aulos, but the real GREAT Heil in the Kithara is (IMHO) the best AMT on the market.



Amazon Audio also uses the same driver in their flagship.

[brother love]

TBI Millenia MG3 review

I acquired a TBI Millenia MG3 earlier this week (thanks Freo-1 !) & have seriously listened to it in my system the past 3 days.  It has the AMR fuse, Cardas RCA and binding posts, anti resonant gels, & the upgraded power supply.

My 2 channel rig consists of:

GR Research N3 transmission line speakers w/ Sonicap capacitors, Sonicap bypass capacitors & No-Rez internal damping material: 90.5 db sensitivity, 40 Hz -3 db, nominal 8 ohm
Electra Cable twisted/ braided speaker cables
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 w/ Electra Cable power cord
2011 Mac Mini dedicated music server w/ 8 gb ram
JKeny Mk II USB/ SPDIF converter w/ battery & Blue Jeans 75 ohm SPDIF cable & 15 db attenuator
Oppo BDP-83SE DVD/ CD player
Virtue Audio Sensation M-451 int. amp w/ Dodd tube buffer & (2) 12v- 5 amp battery kit
Virtue Audio 1/2 meter RCA IC's
Sound treatment panels:  O-C 703 (3) 2’ x 4’ x 2” early reflection, (2) behind speakers, & (2) 2’ x 4’ x 4” bass traps
Dedicated 15 amp circuit to stereo system, Pass & Seymour cryogenically-treated outlet receptacles
17 ft. x 12 ft. x 8 ft. den w/ (3) door openings (no doors)
Rat Shack digital SPL meter

Music media was strictly digital files 16/ 44.1 , 24/96, 24/192 (all .wav files) played thru Decibel.
Listened to many musical genres (jazz, classical, blues, but mainly rock), listening to Black Keys- Brothers as I type this. I selected (2) key cuts to compare the various set-ups: Fishbone- A question of life from Truth & Soul & The Pixies- Hey from Doolittle (2 well know cuts that I have used for many an audition/ shoot-out).

My conclusion: this is one really sweet sounding amp… quite a dynamo that packs a wallop!

My preference was the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 "Dac out" (bypass tube) fed directly to the MG3 utilizing the MG3 volume pot with the MG3 upgraded AC power supply.  Fabulous soundstage, uber fine detail, fluid, very dynamic & bass that digs deep. The speakers tended to disappear more w/ this set-up than all others. The GR Research N3 tweeters are B & G planars w/ a small waveguide. They are detailed, but not bright. The MG3 mated extremely well w/ these, never sounded better in fact!

I switched to the Dodd 2- 12v 5 amp battery kit (my preferred way to listen to my Virtue amp), & the MG3 sounded really good, but the AC PS squeezed out a bit more detail particularly on drums & cymbals IMO.

I have always preferred tubes in my electronics.  The MG3 has that “tube sound” but w/ so much more detail & speed.  Yet I listened for many hours & was never fatigued or weary from extended sessions. 

I connected the Dac to "tube out" w/ a Mullard E88CC-01... this tube has a romantic, lush sound w/ spooky good mid range; but it lacked that finer detail. I rolled-in an Amperex 6922 made in Holland which had a more neutral sound. I tried taking the MG3 pot completely out, using only the TubeDAC-11 pot, various settings w/ both pots, but was still left wanting a bit ...

Comparisons were made to the Virtue Audio Sensation M451 w/ Sonicap capacitors, Dodd tube buffer & battery kit ($1,500 retail).  I tried the tube buffer “on” & “off” (tube is a Psvane 12AU7-T).  Biggest differences were the MG3 w/ AC PS had a bigger soundstage, & again that finer detail, particularly noticeable on lower & upper register extremes. The M451 is much more attractive, built like a tank, has multiple outputs, tube buffer & a remote. By comparison, the MG3 seems cheap & very timid aesthetically; BUT it sounded better in my system.

MG3 pot was at 10 o’clock  for my preferred listening volume: 80 db w/ 85 db max peaks.  Tried a bit at 92 db level, pot was 12 o’clock.  No clipping or strain was evident.  The MG3 finer detail capabilities showed-through at lower listening levels as well.

I can’t believe how good the base model MG3 sounds with no battery or tubes!    This one is a keeper.  Thanks Tom & Freo-1 for this excellent recommendation.  I whole-heartedly agree!   

Groovin’ on Thelonious Monk right now …

[rodge827]

So your the guy who beat me to Freo-1's amp!   

Nice write up and yes I do concure that the amp grrroooves!

Glad to see that you are enjoying it! 

[OzarkTom]

Nice write-up brother love. I figured that you would love the MG3. 

[Freo-1]

Happy to hear you are enjoying the TBI, Brother Love.
 
It (the TBI) is a excellent product at it's price point.  The amp will satisfy specific groups of audiophiles, but certainly not everyone.  For example, if one has inefficient speakers and likes their music LOUD, then I would suggest looking elseware.  Also, if one really wants the detailed texture layers that an SET amp provides,which sports something along the lines of a 300B output tube, the TBI will provide a nice clean open sound, but it will not provide the detailed textured layers of the SET (nor should one expect it to).

Having said that, this product, while not a giant killer (IMHO), is none the less a outstanding value, and is without question worth an audition to those who may be interested.
 

[Mister Pig]

TBI Millenia MG3 review

I acquired a TBI Millenia MG3 earlier this week (thanks Freo-1 !) & have seriously listened to it in my system the past 3 days.  It has the AMR fuse, Cardas RCA and binding posts, anti resonant gels, & the upgraded power supply.

My 2 channel rig consists of:

GR Research N3 transmission line speakers w/ Sonicap capacitors, Sonicap bypass capacitors & No-Rez internal damping material: 90.5 db sensitivity, 40 Hz -3 db, nominal 8 ohm
Electra Cable twisted/ braided speaker cables
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 w/ Electra Cable power cord
2011 Mac Mini dedicated music server w/ 8 gb ram
JKeny Mk II USB/ SPDIF converter w/ battery & Blue Jeans 75 ohm SPDIF cable & 15 db attenuator
Oppo BDP-83SE DVD/ CD player
Virtue Audio Sensation M-451 int. amp w/ Dodd tube buffer & (2) 12v- 5 amp battery kit
Virtue Audio 1/2 meter RCA IC's
Sound treatment panels:  O-C 703 (3) 2’ x 4’ x 2” early reflection, (2) behind speakers, & (2) 2’ x 4’ x 4” bass traps
Dedicated 15 amp circuit to stereo system, Pass & Seymour cryogenically-treated outlet receptacles
17 ft. x 12 ft. x 8 ft. den w/ (3) door openings (no doors)
Rat Shack digital SPL meter

Music media was strictly digital files 16/ 44.1 , 24/96, 24/192 (all .wav files) played thru Decibel.
Listened to many musical genres (jazz, classical, blues, but mainly rock), listening to Black Keys- Brothers as I type this. I selected (2) key cuts to compare the various set-ups: Fishbone- A question of life from Truth & Soul & The Pixies- Hey from Doolittle (2 well know cuts that I have used for many an audition/ shoot-out).

My conclusion: this is one really sweet sounding amp… quite a dynamo that packs a wallop!

My preference was the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 "Dac out" (bypass tube) fed directly to the MG3 utilizing the MG3 volume pot with the MG3 upgraded AC power supply.  Fabulous soundstage, uber fine detail, fluid, very dynamic & bass that digs deep. The speakers tended to disappear more w/ this set-up than all others. The GR Research N3 tweeters are B & G planars w/ a small waveguide. They are detailed, but not bright. The MG3 mated extremely well w/ these, never sounded better in fact!

I switched to the Dodd 2- 12v 5 amp battery kit (my preferred way to listen to my Virtue amp), & the MG3 sounded really good, but the AC PS squeezed out a bit more detail particularly on drums & cymbals IMO.

I have always preferred tubes in my electronics.  The MG3 has that “tube sound” but w/ so much more detail & speed.  Yet I listened for many hours & was never fatigued or weary from extended sessions. 

I connected the Dac to "tube out" w/ a Mullard E88CC-01... this tube has a romantic, lush sound w/ spooky good mid range; but it lacked that finer detail. I rolled-in an Amperex 6922 made in Holland which had a more neutral sound. I tried taking the MG3 pot completely out, using only the TubeDAC-11 pot, various settings w/ both pots, but was still left wanting a bit ...

Comparisons were made to the Virtue Audio Sensation M451 w/ Sonicap capacitors, Dodd tube buffer & battery kit ($1,500 retail).  I tried the tube buffer “on” & “off” (tube is a Psvane 12AU7-T).  Biggest differences were the MG3 w/ AC PS had a bigger soundstage, & again that finer detail, particularly noticeable on lower & upper register extremes. The M451 is much more attractive, built like a tank, has multiple outputs, tube buffer & a remote. By comparison, the MG3 seems cheap & very timid aesthetically; BUT it sounded better in my system.

MG3 pot was at 10 o’clock  for my preferred listening volume: 80 db w/ 85 db max peaks.  Tried a bit at 92 db level, pot was 12 o’clock.  No clipping or strain was evident.  The MG3 finer detail capabilities showed-through at lower listening levels as well.

I can’t believe how good the base model MG3 sounds with no battery or tubes!    This one is a keeper.  Thanks Tom & Freo-1 for this excellent recommendation.  I whole-heartedly agree!   

Groovin’ on Thelonious Monk right now …

Congrats on your new amplifier, sounds like it is integrating (pun alert) into your system quite nicely. I find it interesting that you raise a few points that others have mentioned to being  important to a well executed Millenia system.

GR Research N3 transmission line speakers w/ Sonicap capacitors, Sonicap bypass capacitors & No-Rez internal damping material: 90.5 db sensitivity, 40 Hz -3 db, nominal 8 ohm

Proper speaker matching is always a key to successful implementation of low power amplifiers, heck even higher powered ones too. I have had the chance to listen to a few of Danny Ritchie's designs, and thought the Millenia and his speakers would be a great pairing. Seems to be so in your case. Attributes like decent efficiency, excellent crossover, and high quality drivers go a long way to showing the positive side of the Millenia.

Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 w/ Electra Cable power cord

Tom feels that you need one pair of tubes in a system to get the texture and layering that valves excel at. I believe he also does this at the source component, as you are doing. Seems like a recipe for success to.

I tried taking the MG3 pot completely out, using only the TubeDAC-11 pot, various settings w/ both pots, but was still left wanting a bit ...

A few of us have said that the Millenia worked best in their system as a stand alone unit, with volume control taken care of by the amp's pot. Seems to be so in your case also. This appears to be the beginnings of a trend, and something for future auditioners of the amp to consider.

Once again, congrats on your new amp, sounds like it fits your system quite nicely.

Regards
Mister Pig