[OzarkTom]

Even though I am using the TBI with a $17K system, if it was stolen from me tomorrow, I could easily live with this $2500 system. It would be the TBI amp, the Gallo Classico3 speakers, and the Jolida glass Dac. Cables would have to be the Virtues. Speaker cable and IC's are very open and smooth, even better than Zu audio cables. The USB cable is most definitely Virtue all the way.

We have tried a variety of very high dollar USB cables including the $250 Nordost Blue Heaven's, and the $70 Virt s beat them all in our systems. If you are looking for a top USB cable, the Virtue is a must try.

[jtwrace]

Didn't know you had the Jolida Dac.  Also, had no idea that Virtue even had a USB cable.

[OzarkTom]

Jolida Dac does sound a little thin with my present system, but with the Gallo's it sounded fine. I am still using the AMR in my present set-up.

If you go to the Virtue website, you will see that they are still selling their cables. I wouldn't trade my Virtue USB cable for anything.

Oops. it looks like the USB is $55, not $70 Even a greater buy.

[Mister Pig]

Perhaps I should add a bit of clarification to my last post. I do not want to give the impression that I my enthusiasm for the Millenia has cooled. It certainly has not! what I find so remarkable about this integrated is how refined it is on the top end, there is a notable absence of grain, harshness, dryness, or any type of distortion that is typically associated with affordable solid state electronics. I also find the "black background" that many have commented on to be an attribute that is not found on 500 dollar amps. Imaging is also pretty darn good, and once again excellent at its price point. As i stated earlier, I prefer the amp run on battery power, but I can see where the improved AC could work well in another type of system. But 12 volt power does it for me, haven't had the need to run it on 24 volts.

Where are the limitations? The main one I find is that the Millenia does not have the harmonic density that my hybrid SET has. This seems to be an attribute that I have heard on other chip style amplifiers, namely the Tri path based ones, but they are far far worse in this regards. This is a minor issue and not one that is a huge deal, and this is in comparison to a very good SET amp-which happens to excellent this department. Heck two output tubes in this amp cost more than the Millenia. In my opinion this does tend to lead to a bit of overall smoothness in the way the amp presents music, and for many that is not a bad thing. On battery power this trait is reduced, and that is probably the main reason I prefer it in this manner. Now if I did not have a good SET to A-B against, I may never notice this....especially if i were comparing against a budget priced piece of solid state. Now if i were comparing against budget priced tube gear, like the current stuff out of Asia, I would find that it has a more even tonal balance and lower noise floor. So much of what I say about the amp is in context to what I have to compare it against, and is framed by my reference system. Which are well suited to SET amplification. But for the record I enjoy the Millenia immensely, and have NO trouble recommending it to anyone wanting to build an affordable high quality system. It may not work with every speaker and in every system, so its not a shoe horn transplant for the established audiophile. But if you were getting a friend into this insane hobby, this would be one of my go to system configurations to recommend.

Regards
Mister Pig

[roscoeiii]

Certainly tough to compete with a good SET amp in terms of harmonic density. That is certainly a considerable strength of SET designs.

[WC]

Has anyone used the amp as just a power amp?

In case you already have a preamp and don't need/want the amp to have voltage attenuation...

[rodge827]

Has anyone used the amp as just a power amp?

In case you already have a preamp and don't need/want the amp to have voltage attenuation...

According to Jan Plummer turning the attenuator all the way up will take 99% of it's influence out of the chain.
He also stated that bypassing the volume control was a bad idea.
When I had the amp for audition I used it as a straight amp with my Dual Core as pre.

[OzarkTom]

Some here are saying that they are hearing a lack harmonic texture(HT) from the TBI. After spending 9 months with the TBI, I have my system tweaked to the max, no lack of HT at all. After listeng to two other sets of Class D amp that sound great, I have found that these Class D amps are very linear in sound. They do not add, nor do they take away. Whatever is in the system, these amps will play it.

Over the last 35 years, I have always found that a tube somewhere in the system, and the HT is there. Maybe it is the tube distortion, or just the idea of something glowing, and the sound is great.  I imagine most of you will agree that  an all SS system greatly lacks HT. And without HT, the magic, the goose bumps,  toe tapping and head swaying disappears.

Freo-1 was struggling with his TBI in his system, he adds a tube preamp with Mullard tubes and the problem disappears. My constant  tweaking of my system with Dac's, and I now have the AMR DP-77 tube Dac/Pre as my reference. I tried many ss Dacs under 1K, all SS that I auditioned just did not cut the cake. Some of the SS that selle for $3-8 K did. But the most magical was the Lampizator and the AMR. Again, without the tube, the magic is hard to get.

 Maybe my AMR Dac is like a Set amp, that is why the system sounds Set-like magical but with more detail and transparency.

[Rclark]

Ok, I'll keep this one relatively brief and non-controversial.

Here are my nutshell findings. This is in a normal sensitivity system running a pair of 90db Gr Insignia monitors and an Epik Legend sub. I own Magnestand MMG's but did not compare in fairness to the very low output of the TBI.

Virtue Two.2, modded, on batteries.

detail: 3/5
noise/blackness: 2.5/5
bass (hipassed): 3/5
highs: 4/5
overall power: 3/5
musicality: 3/5

TBI Millennia, modded, on batteries.

detail: 4.5/5
noise/blackness: 4/5
bass: 2/5
highs: 3/5
overall power: 1/5
musicality: 3/5

As you can see, pretty much a wash. Yes, the TBI was definitely quieter, and more detailed, but seemed to compress quite a bit, and delivered a muted overall frequency response in my system, not reaching the highs or lows with the authority of the other amps. Ran out of juice dynamically. But had a definite sweetness to the sound, sweet, sweet, sweet. Remember I kept using the word pleasant before, and how I couldn't place my finger on it, and that's what it was, it has a very sweet sounding coloration, which must be the "SET" sound signature there. I didn't figure this out until I got my Ncores in. I'll explain more below. Anyway, I could see why people who've run tube amps with high sensitivity speakers would really like this amp, a lot. Power, something it lacked, and this showed in bass output as well, and quality, which was pretty much on par with my castrated Virtue. Highs were good, delicate, etc, but, along with musicality, I didn't get the vivid, 3D, relaxed presentation of the Ncores. The Virtue was noisier, yes, but noticeably brawnier and more dynamic, with an organic "live" sound, compared to the almost "prepackaged", nearly plastic sounding (in this system), TBI.

Ncore monoblocks

detail: 5++
noise/blackness: 5++
bass: 5++
highs: 5++
overall power: 5++
musicality: 5++

The Ncore is like Usain Bolt, is a lithe, muscular track athlete, sonically shaming both amps (in this system). It was amusing to put them on the monitors. For the first time ever I hear these monitors pumping out BASS, I nearly laughed when I heard it, because I didn't know it was possible. It was fun to watch the speaker cones come to life and lunge from their baffles. Suddenly there was spooky, dimensional realism in the vocals, an effortless presentation with limitless headroom (like Usain trotting along doing warmup), if you read my Ncore impressions in the Ncore thread and the comparison then to the Virtue, everything I said stands, and no, the TBI does not present any challenge to these monoblocks.

I did notice that when I put the Ncores onto the monitors, there was none of the sweetness that the TBI displayed.. it was completely neutral. But when I put the Ncores on my Magnestands, the Magnestand Jupiter beeswax/Mundorf Silver in Oil crossover gave that sweet coloration, just a dab of it. Not as sweet as the TBI on the monitors, but just enough to my taste.

I want to repeat that: the TBI on the monitors had a very pleasant sweet tone. Ncores on the monitors, completely neutral. Ncores on my Magnestands, a dab of sweet tone is introduced...

What this tells me is that the Ncore truly is a completely neutral amp that one would then choose components to place around them in order to tailor the sound.. (lotta guys putting tube preamps in front, and it all makes sense now), whereas the TBI already has this sweet tone built right in. My findings from listening, my thoughts, my opinion.

I wish I could have heard the TBI on a high sensitivity system, that might be neat. But for those of you with regular sensitivity speakers, I don't suggest them. in fact I suggest waiting for the new 250-300 watt Virtue Three if you want a turnkey amp, or getting our your soldering iron and building some Ncores.


My source is very simple and pure, right now consisting of the fabulous Emotiva ERC-2 cd player into a battery powered Warspeed Optocoupler LDR attenuator.

[OzarkTom]

Thank you rclark for being on the tour and your opinion. I see your are the first on the tour to complain about power output.

 I have tried them on 86db Gallo Stradas, 88db Gallo Classico 3's, and 92db Gallo Classico 4's besides the higher sensitivity spakers and never had any problems blowing my ears off. The TBI plays my Gallo Stadas just as loud as my Virtue does since they are about the same power. 

I never have tried any speakers that cost under $1000, so maybe I should try some of those with the TBI amp to see what the outcome is.

[Rclark]

What I said there, those were my pure observations from careful listening. Now remember, even Pez and Tyson can have different opinions at RMAF when they are both in the same room. Those were my findings.

[OzarkTom]

I did notice on my 2011 6moons Blue Moons award winning speakers, the TBI was more transparent and had better holographic imaging the the tour Ncores had. The TBI put me in the first 4 rows at the concert, the Ncores was more in rows 12-15. But that is maybe just a coloration.

The Atsahs I had here for 10 days was more musical than the tour Ncores, not near as much AC glare as the NC400's.

But that is just my observation.

[Rclark]

"not near as much AC glare as the NC400's" - the ncores don't have AC glare, you do, and apparently at a dramatic level. You yourself said your power quality varies widely, so your house is not a reliable test source. On another day your results could have been different, "glare"-wise. Right? That makes sense right? 

I feel bad for you, I really do! Your house, electrically, is like an incurable leper.

[OzarkTom]

I feel bad for you, I really do! Your house, electrically, is like an incurable leper.

Yep, even Harry Pearson says the AC distortion is getting worse and worse every year. He said that Enid Lumley was the first to complain about this problem many years ago.

I guess the Atsahs just have a better power supply than the NC400's. That is just my observation.

[doug s.]

Ok, I'll keep this one relatively brief and non-controversial.

Here are my nutshell findings. This is in a normal sensitivity system running a pair of 90db Gr Insignia monitors and an Epik Legend sub. I own Magnestand MMG's but did not compare in fairness to the very low output of the TBI.

it is truly unfortunate that you did not audition the tbi's with your maggies.  unfortunate for you, and for all those who are curious about what your opinions might have been.  i know i was curious, and i don't even like maggies - i simply wanted your reaction to the tbi driving less efficient speakers.   in fairness to the tbi, you should not have prejudged the amp w/o trying it.

doug s.

[Rclark]

I kept getting  don't put them on your Maggie's from Tom and I figured 35 watts wasn't going to be too exciting.

[doug s.]

I kept getting  don't put them on your Maggie's from Tom and I figured 35 watts wasn't going to be too exciting.

i agree you got some mixed signals from tom about this, (he seemed more concerned about the load the maggies would put on 'em, more than the power itself), but you had 'em in your house, man!  worse case?  it wouldn't sound good at loud wolume.

doug s.

[cab]

I guess the Atsahs just have a better power supply than the NC400's. That is just my observation.

That is one possibility but certainly nothing but pure speculation.

[doug s.]

Yep, even Harry Pearson says the AC distortion is getting worse and worse every year. He said that Enid Lumley was the first to complain about this problem many years ago.

I guess the Atsahs just have a better power supply than the NC400's. That is just my observation.

That is one possibility but certainly nothing but pure speculation.

considering the only issue tom is talking about is poor power/bad ac line noise; it seems likely his speculation is accurate, even tho it is admittedly speculation.  (something that was never in question; curious why you see the need to emphasize it.)  after all, better power supplies are exactly what helps bad ac line noise.

doug s.

[cab]

It could be many things; concluding it is a "better" power supply in the Atsah, as compared to the nc400 is nebulous at best, especially considering the specs of the two supplies, the comments to the contrary made by the designer, and the self-reported high variability in the quality of power coming out of the wall....