[Freo-1]

I have put the Virtue back into the system and am playing it on the monitors for the first time. Initial impressions: The Virtue looks over, pops its collar, and brushes off its shoulders, one at a time.

I'm not hearing a beaten amp. Different presentations though. The strong dynamic is back. That drive, that willingness to take the highest notes and really emphasise them. The TBI is almost too polite. Maybe not on 109dB speakers, but you kind of need those in order to rock off 35 watts, let's get real here. The Virtue is certainly more powerful, almost boisterous. Will take time to fully evaluate the differences.

Playing Miles Davis Kind of Blue through the Virtue and it is swinging pretty hard. The drums really sizzle and also just as delicate and precise, if not moreso.

 
Thanks for posting your thoughts/opinions to date.  The thing that really jumps out to me are what you consider an asset to playback, based on your postings, I would not be happy with.  Hence, this is why I always say “Horses for Courses”.  J
 

 
I find the TBI at the hairy edge of acceptable brightness in the HF region.  I do not find it polite at all.  It’s very clean (which is remarkable for Class D, since many of them border on screeching with HF).  I also find it very extended in the HF region (almost too extended).  It took some time (and tube/cable swapping) to get it where it sounded neutral to me.  I found that some recordings to be a great match for the TBI, while others were better served with the First Watt M2.  Both amps are very enjoyable, but different rows of the Symphony Hall to be sure.  The M2 is further recessed in the hall, while the TBI is in the front third.  These observations are based on my system as a whole, and the speakers specifically.  For example, the Cary Silver Oak Model Ones are very unforgiving of any component in the system that is not neutral.  Too much emphasis in any one region will be exposed for what it is.
 
Based on your observation of the Virtue, I would be running for the OFF switch, and changing out the amp pronto.  I HATE any piece of equipment that accentuates HF to the point of being etched.  What you call sizzle I would call edgy and grainy.  That’s why I generally try to run the audio signal through a tube somewhere in the chain, to reduce the glare that most solid state seems to convey.  Neither set of observations are right nor wrong, just different, based on one’s preferences.  I am coming to realize just how difficult it is to write an objective review on any piece of audio equipment. 
 
So, what does it all mean? 
 
At a macro level, it really does come down to personal tastes.  When it comes to evaluation, it’s pretty much subjective, so one person’s “best component evea!” would be another’s ear bleeder, or dull and flat, as the case may be.  It takes awhile to get a handle on our individual preferences, and once we sort them out, need to keep those in mind as we review a given piece of gear in our systems.  Some reviewers (Occum comes to mind) does a great job explaining his preferences and overall sound when writing an evaluation on a given audio item.  When he writes a review, I have a fair idea if I would like it or not, which is not the same as which is better.  The term “better” is subjective at best, and is based on the entire system as a whole. 
 
 
What is always helpful is posting all the equipment used in the evaluation, and some specifics about the speakers, such as efficiency, driver compliment, crossover (if known), etc. 
 

[OzarkTom]

Here is my personal taste in listening preferences.

I like:

speakers to disappear, so big soundstage
holographic 3D imaging if possible
third row seating(my eyes are bad, so I always sit upfront at a concert)
vocals to be sharp and focused, but natural
instruments to be separated and focus
percussion instruments to sound natural

I dislike:

boomy bass, not a bass freak like I was when I was young
10th row or further back seating-again, bad eyes
brightness
AC glare-Gives me a severe headache and earache
crossovers-takes away dynamics and clarity in the vocals

My system consists of:

Rethm Maargas
AMR DP-777 Dac/Pre
TBI Millenia MG3 amp
Rethm cables

With this system, I have all the likes that I have ever wanted. I could easily take this system to my grave.

[Rclark]

You're missapplying my buzzwords. By sizzle I mean sounds live. Anyway, not finished listening. Plus mark in the TBI category, seems to have a blacker presentation, lower noise floor. There are some plusses for the TBI, it's nearly a wash between the two amps on SQ. I will be very specific when I write my final stuff.

[OzarkTom]

You're missapplying my buzzwords. By sizzle I mean sounds live. Anyway, not finished listening. Plus mark in the TBI category, seems to have a blacker presentation, lower noise floor. There are some plusses for the TBI, it's nearly a wash between the two amps on SQ. I will be very specific when I write my final stuff.

You have never been specific on what brands and models your ancillary equipment is that you are using? Dac? cd player? preamp? cables?

The TBI will show up any flaw in your system. It did in my $17K system.

[Rclark]

I think everyone here (I'm pretty sure you and I have talked extensively about that stuff  check our PM and email exchanges) is pretty familiar with what I am running, anyway, I'll certainly mention it all again in my final writeup.

Hey, I'm just curious, was any of that budget towards power? With the tremendous power problems you seem to have there, it seems that if I were you, I'd be upgrading the electrical in the room. The power problems you describe seem downright bizarre and quite dramatic.

You mention various parts of the day being unbearable, and luckily I don't have anything like that going on here, so it's pretty easy to evaluate on battery, or off. 

[OzarkTom]

As I have said before, I have tried many power conditioners over the years to no avail.

[Rclark]

No I mean, full on electrical work. Isolation and regulation and whatnot.

[OzarkTom]

Yep, got that too.

If your town has bad AC coming into your house, you cannot do anything about it.

[Rclark]

huh. Learn something new.

[Freo-1]

You're missapplying my buzzwords. By sizzle I mean sounds live. Anyway, not finished listening. Plus mark in the TBI category, seems to have a blacker presentation, lower noise floor. There are some pluses for the TBI, it's nearly a wash between the two amps on SQ. I will be very specific when I write my final stuff.

No, your description (to me) fits most Class D amps I have heard.  My response is not meant to be taken as criticizing what you wrote.  It is simply a response (based on my experiences) to your observed listening impressions, nothing more.

That is why I said its not easy to write an evaluation, due to all the possible ways it can be taken.  Again, no right or wrong here, just preferences based on ones overall system.

As a side note, picked up a NOS quad of Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plates from my tech buddy, and installing them in the C/J clone using the TBI amps was stunning.  The midrage improved to the point it almost sounded "live", treble was tamed just enough, and 3-D improved.  Also picked up a vintage Bendix 5V4G tube for the Modwright Oppo (date code 9/43), and that really improved SACD/DVD playback.  The TBI brought out all the improvements (both subtle and not subtle) with the tube changes.  It really does remind one of a high quality SET amp. 

[OzarkTom]

No, your description (to me) fits most Class D amps I have heard.  My response is not meant to be taken as criticizing what you wrote.  It is simply a response (based on my experiences) to your observed listening impressions, nothing more.

That is why I said its not easy to write an evaluation, due to all the possible ways it can be taken.  Again, no right or wrong here, just preferences based on ones overall system.

As a side note, picked up a NOS quad of Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plates from my tech buddy, and installing them in the C/J clone using the TBI amps was stunning.  The midrage improved to the point it almost sounded "live", treble was tamed just enough, and 3-D improved.  Also picked up a vintage Bendix 5V4G tube for the Modwright Oppo (date code 9/43), and that really improved SACD/DVD playback.  The TBI brought out all the improvements (both subtle and not subtle) with the tube changes.  It really does remind one of a high quality SET amp.

That TBI is somethung else when making subtle improvements in your system. It always reveals the differences. That is very rare in a $500 econo amp.

[Mister Pig]

Spent the last few minutes getting caught up on this thread, and I do not find the results of Rclark surprising at all. As I have said before, the home team...in this case the Virtue amp....has the advantage in a comparison. Primarily due to the fact that the associated equipment used with the established amplifier is selected to be a favourable match. Now if the Virtue amp and the Millenia were similar sounding, then both amps would acquit themselves well. But this does not appear to be the case in this situation, as these two amps have different strengths and limitations. Another factor that often comes into play is the listeners long term association and familiarity with the established amp, which tends to predispose him/her to appreciating the virtues of that product. In short, Rclark knows what the Virtue amp does well, and values those traits....which are different than the Millenia.

Now the idea that the Millenia is not a world beater makes sense to me also, and I have never evaluated it in that regards. But rather I look at its sound qualities as being distinct and unique to the device, and judge it on its own merits to reproduce music. The Millenia is a class BD amplifier, and it does not sound like a SET, nor a Tripath,  nor a Class A/B, or a Class A amplifier. The way it presents music is superb, but it does it within its own abilities and should not be touted to be superior or inferior to other topologies. Now the price versus performance ration is a fair one,  and in my opinion it is a remarkable product at its price point. But that is only my opinion based on what i have heard from the Millenia and other amps that reside at this price point. Now with that said, I have not had a Virtue in my home to listen to...so I make no definitive statements.

I spent a bit of time listening to this amp again tonight, and find that in my system the battery arrangement still performs the best, although the upgraded AC power supply has its merits. If I had a speaker system with a more energetic top end, then I could see the AC option being a better choice. So much of what is being debated here comes down to the fine points of system matching. The Millenia is going to excel in one type of system, and the Virtue another type. Of course listener preference comes into play also, and one person may prefer one over the other.

One thing i do caution against is to not build the Millenia up to be something it is not. I shy away from the term giant killer, because often it creates unrealistic expectations. The Millenia is an outstanding $500 amplifier, a game changer in most respects. But it is not going to outperform the finer conventional amplifiers in the market, whether they be tube, solid state, OTL, or SET. There are some practical limitations to the amp, even for this little dynamo. But I do agree that high quality sound can be had for short green, and that is an awesome thing to have in this hobby. If you are working on a budget, buy a Millenia and spend the money you save on upgrading speakers and source components, its a smart way to build a good system.

Regards
Mister Pig

[morganc]

[quote author=Mister Pig link=topic=108242.msg1150152#msg1150152 As I have said before, the home team...in this case the Virtue amp....has the advantage in a comparison. Primarily due to the fact that the associated equipment used with the established amplifier is selected to be a favourable match. Now if the Virtue amp and the Millenia were similar sounding, then both amps would acquit themselves well. But this does not appear to be the case in this situation, as these two amps have different strengths and limitations. Another factor that often comes into play is the listeners long term association and familiarity with the established amp, which tends to predispose him/her to appreciating the virtues of that product. In short, Rclark knows what the Virtue amp does well, and values those traits....which are different than the Millenia.

[/quote]

I think this is an excellent point that far too few of us take into consideration when evaluating any component in our system.........

[Rclark]

Spent the last few minutes getting caught up on this thread, and I do not find the results of Rclark surprising at all. As I have said before, the home team...in this case the Virtue amp....has the advantage in a comparison. Primarily due to the fact that the associated equipment used with the established amplifier is selected to be a favourable match. Now if the Virtue amp and the Millenia were similar sounding, then both amps would acquit themselves well. But this does not appear to be the case in this situation, as these two amps have different strengths and limitations. Another factor that often comes into play is the listeners long term association and familiarity with the established amp, which tends to predispose him/her to appreciating the virtues of that product. In short, Rclark knows what the Virtue amp does well, and values those traits....which are different than the Millenia.

Now the idea that the Millenia is not a world beater makes sense to me also, and I have never evaluated it in that regards. But rather I look at its sound qualities as being distinct and unique to the device, and judge it on its own merits to reproduce music. The Millenia is a class BD amplifier, and it does not sound like a SET, nor a Tripath,  nor a Class A/B, or a Class A amplifier. The way it presents music is superb, but it does it within its own abilities and should not be touted to be superior or inferior to other topologies. Now the price versus performance ration is a fair one,  and in my opinion it is a remarkable product at its price point. But that is only my opinion based on what i have heard from the Millenia and other amps that reside at this price point. Now with that said, I have not had a Virtue in my home to listen to...so I make no definitive statements.

I spent a bit of time listening to this amp again tonight, and find that in my system the battery arrangement still performs the best, although the upgraded AC power supply has its merits. If I had a speaker system with a more energetic top end, then I could see the AC option being a better choice. So much of what is being debated here comes down to the fine points of system matching. The Millenia is going to excel in one type of system, and the Virtue another type. Of course listener preference comes into play also, and one person may prefer one over the other.

One thing i do caution against is to not build the Millenia up to be something it is not. I shy away from the term giant killer, because often it creates unrealistic expectations. The Millenia is an outstanding $500 amplifier, a game changer in most respects. But it is not going to outperform the finer conventional amplifiers in the market, whether they be tube, solid state, OTL, or SET. There are some practical limitations to the amp, even for this little dynamo. But I do agree that high quality sound can be had for short green, and that is an awesome thing to have in this hobby. If you are working on a budget, buy a Millenia and spend the money you save on upgrading speakers and source components, its a smart way to build a good system.

Regards
Mister Pig

Thank you for injecting some rational commmentary. Nice read, thank you!

[OzarkTom]

Thank you Mr. Pig.

I should have never used the words giant killer, it has made way too many enemies here. The only way any amp can kill another is if one does not turn on. The TBI satisfies my prefernce of being in the first five rows at a concert, or being in the recording studio itself. But that is on my system that I use, it might be diffeent on other systems. The Ncore 400's put me further back in the hall, more like rows 12-15.

With the higher quality efficiency speakers that are out there now, you can choose a more expensive speaker system and use the TBI amp without feeling a loss of quality. Before I would spend $5000 on an amp and $5000 on a pai of speakers, I would be more apt to spend $500 on this amp and $9500 on the speakers.

I still like the idea of the amp being able to play on a battery, that gets rid of any AC glare that I get here on Friday and Saturday nights. Often, that is the only time that I get to play my system.

[OzarkTom]

 
Oh, I forgot Mr. Pig, you should really try the TBI with the Cardas posts and Cardas RCA mods. That adds the icing on the cake.

 
I wonder why rclark never mentioned the high quality Cardas parts on the tour amp? Cardas is as good as it gets and sounds the best that we have ever tried. And we tried a lot.

[jtwrace]

I should have never used the words giant killer

Maybe maybe not.  It's all relative.  Right?  I mean, I've never heard the TBI but I have heard the Virtue and Jolida.  I filled it under, if I'm ever in a position that money and space was a real concern, I could live with either one very happily.  I think it's great that someone just starting out can buy that instead of a $200 receiver from a big box store and actually get something "hifi".   Giant Killer?  I bet it does walk all over some much more expensive gear.  I have no doubt.  People just need to take it for what it is and not get their panties in a wad. 

[OzarkTom]

Maybe maybe not.  It's all relative.  Right?  I mean, I've never heard the TBI but I have heard the Virtue and Jolida.  I filled it under, if I'm ever in a position that money and space was a real concern, I could live with either one very happily.  I think it's great that someone just starting out can buy that instead of a $200 receiver from a big box store and actually get something "hifi".   Giant Killer?  I bet it does walk all over some much more expensive gear.  I have no doubt.  People just need to take it for what it is and not get their panties in a wad. 

  +1

Thanks Jason, I am glad someone understands.

[wilsynet]

It really does remind one of a high quality SET amp.

Which one?  300B, 2A3, 45, PX-25, 421A?

[Freo-1]

All of them, and none of them. 

The statement was a generic reference to the open sound a SET amp provides that most amps do not. 

I think Mr. Pig's earlier comments hit the nail on the head.  The TBI is a excellent amp at it's price point, and works extremely well for low wattage setups.  The fact that one can spend more on speakers, and potentially get better sound that if one split the same amount cash allocating more to a expensive amp and less on speakers is the real take away.