[wisnon]

The differences in build quality, internally, are even starker. The Virtue also boasts a subwoofer out, the Millenia does not. However, the Millenia would make a nice camping integrated as it takes AA batteries. But the build quality internally is drastically different between the two. I'm starting to wonder how Virtue did it? Very nice. I will do some ab/ing tomorrow.

So far it's been rough having to go from my Maggie's to my monitors, but I'm starting to believe the Millennia has enough juice to pull it off if I bring them back in.

Pictures please....

[Rclark]

I'll snap some pics tonight. The only reason I bring it up is both amps are roughly same price range, same features, preamp, similar power output, vastly different buildouts.

I will say that the Sonics are the most important thing and it's doing nicely there. Need to let it settle before I can compare though.

[Freo-1]

Cosmetics are important to many, but Tom did raise a good point bringing up the Ncore IMO. People will naturally feel that a nicer looking amp will have better build quality and thus will sound better. Others, like myself, may feel that skimping on cosmetics can be a good way to invest more into better sound quality hence why DIY is an interest to a lot of us.

Amen to that.  This Conrad Johnson clone sounds awesome, with better parts and  circuit board than a real C/J provides.  Not as fancy, looking, but a great match for the TBI's (and it sounds better, too).


 


 
 




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Rclark]

I just took pics, and the difference between the amp parts on the Millennia and the Virtue is quite something to see. The Virtue is a very substantial amp, there are large quality caps, a lot going on under the hood, every space possible is filled, fine aluminum case work. The Millennia is a few small boards... and that's it 

It's sounding nice so far on the monitors but I think when I put the Virtue back on there in a couple days... my expectation was this Millennia would be a very high end little amp, but it doesn't look so under the hood, it's literally just a couple little PCB's and nothing else. the Virtue looks like a cost no object design by comparison.

I just took pics and am uploading all of it.

[Freo-1]

I just took pics, and the difference between the amp parts on the Millennia and the Virtue is quite something to see. The Virtue is a very substantial amp, there are large quality caps, a lot going on under the hood, every space possible is filled, fine aluminum case work. The Millennia is a few small boards... and that's it 

It's sounding nice so far on the monitors but I think when I put the Virtue back on there in a couple days... my expectation was this Millennia would be a very high end little amp, but it doesn't look so under the hood, it's literally just a couple little PCB's and nothing else. the Virtue looks like a cost no object design by comparison.

I just took pics and am uploading all of it.

Listen with your ears, not your eyes.  To me, all types of Class D amps look puny and unsubstantial compared to a large Class A type amp.  What counts is how it sounds.  The TBI is the only Class D amp I have heard to date that did not make me reach for the off switch.

Forget how it looks, and just listen to it for a few days.  Hide it behind your speaker so you don't see it.  Just leave it on with AC and let it play, and see what you think of the sound.  You may or may not like it.  It may be a bit challenged with the Maggies.
 With my 88db/w Carys, mono operation really opened it up to its full potential. 

[Rclark]

No I like it, it sounds nice, it's just interesting having a very similar design to compare it to. Either way, hands down, the Virtue wins on fit and finish, build quality, not even close.

[TrungT]

Freo
I recognized some of the parts in the Conrad Johnson clone. 
 

[Freo-1]

Freo
I recognized some of the parts in the Conrad Johnson clone. 
 

Cheers, Mate!   
I'm very happy with it, especially since installing NOS Mullard CV 4004 Box Plates.  They sound slightly better than Telefunkens in my rig (blasphemy, I know, but hey, it is what it is)   

[Rclark]

This third cell phone picture says it best. It's like Stonehenge versus Wall Mart. In real life, the differences are even more apparent that these pics. Cheap, plasticky, or meant to be displayed in a fine home (which mine is not), heavy, chromed knob against cheap plastic dial..

The exteriors, textured paint, textured aluminum on the Virtue, and your choice of customization.

I have a red case, I also have a custom wooden knob for the Virtue. The exterior of the Millennia is that cheap black plastic that made me think Best Buy Internet router, or some other cheap device.





These pics show the clean setup on the Virtue, with the inovative, Nintendo-like propellor connectors, the quality stock, unmodified connections (THESE CONNECTORS ON THE MILLENNIA ARE AFTERMARKET), and the included subwoofer out... The 4 flush mounted, hex chassis screws versus the cacaphony of exposed screws on the back of the Millennia... The smaller and more compact size...

The TbI is warty and ugly by comparison. Those aftermarket connectors aside, which are nice... but still not as nice as the stock Virtue propellor connectors.

Makes me want to see the Virtue 3!




And that's it, all loosely fitted and insubstantial, looks like junk against....




...........

....

pow




Solid Aluminum casing as a heat sink. Giant capacitance. quality quality quality...throughout!

Don't mind the hot glue there, that was from Jason during the customization of new caps.



Look at this nice copper heat pipe here.Now mine is modded, those big blue caps are ClarityCap MR's, thank you Jason T.

Now off into the shootout. Tom wants me to compare the TBI to the Ncores as well, which will be here in two days.

[roscoeiii]

Nice pics. But proof is in the pudding/sound.

Internal shots of the TBI certainly don't detract from how good it sounded in my system compared to the much more expensive Rogue Stereo 90.

[genjamon]

And the venerable NC400 modules have none of the weighty parts so celebrated on that Virtue amp...you sure you purchased wisely, Rclark? Maybe you should have just stayed with the Virtue?

[Rclark]

I understand the situation.. and am listening..

But thing is, this is (the Virtue) a Tripath. So not that far off. Not like some dramatically different topology.

[Rclark]

But FWIW, going into this shootout, after seeing this internals of the Millennia, I'd feel ripped off if I spent more than $70    I mean come on it's a 35 watter and clearly built cheap as possible, regardless of how good the chip sounds.

Anyway I say Virtue Audio, modern day giant killer, too!

On to the listening tests.


(At least the Virtue has the balls to drive some Maggies... just sayin')

[roscoeiii]

And none of this is to say that it isn't commendable for Virtue to include such high quality parts. I do think that they likely extract as much a possible from the Tripath chip through these choices and their excellent ears in voicing these amps.

The question is if new technologies and implementations trump this excellent implementation of the Tripath in a particular system according to a certain listener's taste.

It should also be said more and more often that in so many cases, it is not a matter of BEST. But a matter of what works best for a certain person's preferences in a certain system.

[virtue]

RClark,

Thank you for posting those photos and all of your props!   You have a huge heart, my man!

Yes, building the Virtue ONE (it was originally called the "Audiophile.ONE") was a labor of love and prodigious amounts of patience, late nights, and expense.  The casework is custom and the amp was designed with love, by ear, and with the goal of giving customers a "no-regret" purchase opportunity.  I built it for me and others seemed to like it too.  But what did I know?  Not enough, apparently.  We sold out and haven't been able to make a sequel for almost two years now.  We'll be back in time and I hope that the next generation is as well received as the last.

Now vis a vis the TBI amp, Tom has an excellent ear and I have no doubt that it's as good as he says.  And I'm sure that it's also a labor of love for Jan and his team.  And if they charge $500 for it, maybe they can make some money and reinvest in production, and god-willing turn a profit.   It's not easy for a small manufacturer to get everything perfect the first time, and not everyone can be expected to dump $50,000+ (up-front) into enclosure work like we did.  At the time we were unknown and you gave Virtue the benefit of the doubt.   I hope that you afford the same to TBI!  I wish Jan and anyone eager enough to make anything you can touch, smell, and eat in this world -- an awful lot of support and encouragement.  My day job is in the software industry and shipping bits isn't easy.  But shipping atoms which do not break and come right back to you, is even harder.

Every manufacturer here counts on the kindness of you all to give our gear a try.  Even if you don't like everything about it; give us a try.  Give TBI a try.  No product will satisfy everyone but you never know; it just might tug a heart-string.   Everyone has different turn-ons and turn-offs.

Big hugs to you, my friends and customers: Tom and RClark.

Seth

[OzarkTom]

And I love Seth and his company of Virtue. I loved the Two.2 amp that I owned for a month, but traded back to Seth when the Sensation came out. Seth was great over that deal. If you think the Two.2 is built great, you ought to see the Sensation. That amp is built like a tank compared to the Two.2. My buddy Rex owned the Sensation 901. Then we both added the $300 Dodd tube buffer nods. Then Rex added the $200 Clarity cap mods. I owned the 451 amp and added the $200 Duelund Alexander mods on the high pass filter. We both added the $125 Dodd battery supply mods.

I had over $1300 in my Virtue Sensation 451 amp, Rex had about $1600 in his Sensation 901 amp. But after we both listened to the TBI in stock form, then listneed to the TBBI with the Cardas mods, Rex instantly sold his Virtue amp and I will sell mine if anyone here wants it. Rex and I both own low wattage systems, that is why I posted this amp in the low wattage threads.

The TBI MG3 is more transparent, bigger soundstage, and more holographic than the Virtue modded Sensation is. I nor Rex had never thought that was possible. We both loved our Virtue amps. My buddy Rex has said the TBI is the amp he has been looking for, for the last 40 yeas. I have to agree with him. Would we pay $2500 for this amp and this sound? If this is the only way we can get it, yes. Would we pay $5000 for this sound. Yes, but we would demand Jan and company to give us some more flash in the cosmetic dpartment. For the $4500 extra that this amp costs, I am sure Jan and company could easily afford to provide that.

I have owned and sold many of an Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Levinson, NYAL Futterman's, Counterpoint, PS Audio, Classe, Threshold, Rowland, Krell,  and other big name SS and tube amps over the years. Those amps are all built like tanks and cost about that much also.  As long as you own a low wattage system, I would stack the sound of this TBI amp with any of those tanks.

But I know that Maggies is not a low wattage speaker, but I imagine everyone else here knows that also. I have owned and sold many a used Maggies over the years. The Maggies can dip into the 2 ohm region in the bass, that is not good for the MG3. I warned rclark about this, but he asked to be included on this tour, so I did. I don't discriminate to no one, not even a Maggie owner.

Now if Seth and Virtue company can top this sound in my system, I would most definitely buy that amp tomorrow. Seth is a great friend and business owner to me. I love him dearly. I am sure the Tripath sound will keep improving under Seth and company, but for now, the TBI Classs BD amp beats the sound of any Tripath that I have ever heard. I have owned and still own several of them.

[Rclark]

 

That's all well and good Tom and "Rex", whoever you are, we've sure heard a lot about you  , Rex, and that's your opinion, but so far I'm not hearing anything that is blowing my mind. It's okay, but I think when I swap my Virtue back in here in a couple days, I honestly don't know what to expect. Certainly not a dramatic loss in quality. It may be a lot better. I'll let my ears determine that.

The tiny Virtue will certainly be more powerful and have more headroom so that right there counts.

The only reason I don't know for sure, right now, is I'm using my monitors, which I haven't listened to for five months at least, when I was comparing to the N1x. So this is all fresh.

But my reaction right now is it's not some leap over the Virtue, not by any strech, if at all. It might be worse. AB'ing over the next few days will be fun. FYI tom, you might not have been aware of this, but the sensation was nothing more than a one or two with more inputs. That's it. And you had room for a tube buffer. That's it. The only difference. The Two.2 had all the high end parts as a 901, just not the same tube buffer option or amount of inputs. Otherwise same exact amp.

And in fact, I have all the fancy mods you do, save the tube, did you notice!  Yep, same deal! See those pretty blue caps, you might recognize them. Otherwise, you had more inputs and a tube. That's it. No difference otherwise. Same exact topology.

The Two and the Sensation are basically the same exact, identical amp.

 

I'm open minded to this demo, back to listening. I'll put my Two in there over the weekend after I'm further settled in with this amp

[wisnon]

RClark,

Thank you for posting those photos and all of your props!   You have a huge heart, my man!

Yes, building the Virtue ONE (it was originally called the "Audiophile.ONE") was a labor of love and prodigious amounts of patience, late nights, and expense.  The casework is custom and the amp was designed with love, by ear, and with the goal of giving customers a "no-regret" purchase opportunity.  I built it for me and others seemed to like it too.  But what did I know?  Not enough, apparently.  We sold out and haven't been able to make a sequel for almost two years now.  We'll be back in time and I hope that the next generation is as well received as the last.

Now vis a vis the TBI amp, Tom has an excellent ear and I have no doubt that it's as good as he says.  And I'm sure that it's also a labor of love for Jan and his team.  And if they charge $500 for it, maybe they can make some money and reinvest in production, and god-willing turn a profit.   It's not easy for a small manufacturer to get everything perfect the first time, and not everyone can be expected to dump $50,000+ (up-front) into enclosure work like we did.  At the time we were unknown and you gave Virtue the benefit of the doubt.   I hope that you afford the same to TBI!  I wish Jan and anyone eager enough to make anything you can touch, smell, and eat in this world -- an awful lot of support and encouragement.  My day job is in the software industry and shipping bits isn't easy.  But shipping atoms which do not break and come right back to you, is even harder.

Every manufacturer here counts on the kindness of you all to give our gear a try.  Even if you don't like everything about it; give us a try.  Give TBI a try.  No product will satisfy everyone but you never know; it just might tug a heart-string.   Everyone has different turn-ons and turn-offs.

Big hugs to you, my friends and customers: Tom and RClark.

Seth

What a classy post!

[Freo-1]

RClark:
A few things:
1) Stop listening with your eyes, and listen with your ears!  Your pics are a little misleading, as there is more electronincs inside the TBI not shown.   Both amps are good bang for the buck.
2) The topology between the two is NOT the same.  The TBI uses a completely different setup, from using the latest TI Op-amp in the input, to the output configuration/filtering stage.  That's why it does not sound nasty like most class D/T setups do. 
3) I am not sure the TBI is a good match for Maggies in stereo mode.  It may work OK for mono.  You will just have to see.
 

[Freo-1]

And none of this is to say that it isn't commendable for Virtue to include such high quality parts. I do think that they likely extract as much a possible from the Tripath chip through these choices and their excellent ears in voicing these amps.

The question is if new technologies and implementations trump this excellent implementation of the Tripath in a particular system according to a certain listener's taste.

It should also be said more and more often that in so many cases, it is not a matter of BEST. But a matter of what works best for a certain person's preferences in a certain system.

Well stated.