PS Audio and NCore

firedog · « **on:** 1 Jul 2012, 02:12 pm »

http://psaudio.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=bd5baa3af039b1bce8455f635&id=c50ff3fdd8&e=a4475cbcc2

Paul McGowan of PS Audio - knocked out by the Ncores and planning to build an amp around the technology. Doesn't give any more detail than that, but thinks the NCores are revolutionary. Apparently Jeff Rowland is also thinking of building an amp based on the NCores.

hifial · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 03:14 pm »

I did not see your post before I posted this in the Mola-Mola and other manufactures of NC 1200. Sorry for the double post.

Phil · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 05:48 pm »

That is an interesting view coming from Paul McGowan, someone who has worked for a while with class D and considers his firm an engineering powerhouse (my wording).

Class D has come a long way. I had an early PS Audio class D, and while it had a crystal clear quality I liked, it doesn't compare well (audio memory) with an inexpensive ice power-based amp with a lot less power. Seems that those who really put thought into how to improve class D are making some significant gains.

jhm731 · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 04:32 pm »

Question on the PS Audio discussion forum:

"According to Tracks, it looks like the new Perfect Wave Amp will be based on an NCore module...the NC1200?

That should reduce the development time.

So Paul, when will it be ready and are you going to power it with a linear PS or SMPS?"

Paul response:

"Not sure about timing as there's a lot of work to do on building a new front end (class A) and figuring out the best power supply option. Right now we are evaluating the benefits and downsides of both a pair of SMPS from Hypex and a pair of linear versions of the same. So far the SMPS is winning but I don't want to make a snap judgment."

kevinh · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 10:15 pm »

Quote from: jhm731 on 2 Jul 2012, 04:32 pm

Question on the PS Audio discussion forum:

"According to Tracks, it looks like the new Perfect Wave Amp will be based on an NCore module...the NC1200?

That should reduce the development time.

So Paul, when will it be ready and are you going to power it with a linear PS or SMPS?"

Paul response:

"Not sure about timing as there's a lot of work to do on building a new front end (class A) and figuring out the best power supply option. Right now we are evaluating the benefits and downsides of both a pair of SMPS from Hypex and a pair of linear versions of the same. So far the SMPS is winning but I don't want to make a snap judgment."

AFAIK the NC1200 ia the only OEM module available at this time.

jhm731 · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: kevinh on 2 Jul 2012, 10:15 pm

AFAIK the NC1200 ia the only OEM module available at this time.

I think PS Audio qualifies as an OEM.

A PS Audio amp using an NCore module would be a huge payday for
Hypex.

jhm731 · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jul 2012, 07:55 pm »

On the PS Audio forum, hifial asked the following question:

"Paul, from your response of above can you clarify what you meant by a "new front end (class A)". I see you are trying to decide between a linear and a SMPS power supply but what is Class A doing in a "Class D" or Hypex Ncore Amp. Any insight would be appreciated."

Paul's response:

"The Hypex modules all require a front end - they have input buffers but they don't have gain. I think the actual N-Cores are something they sell to DIY guys and I believe they may include one of Bruno's choices for gain which would always be a IC op amp. While this can be coupled nicely it would never be my choice.

We are using the OEM versions of the N-Core - not the actual N-Cores themselves but the basic N-Core engines that need a front end.

From the days when we first introduces a Class D amplifier to other progressions of the art we have never used IC op amps as our gain devices in the traditional way (we're not a very traditional company .

So to understand let's break down a Class D amplifier. As with any power amplifier there are two main stages: the input voltage gain stage and the output current gain stage. In a class A/B design the output current gain stage is handled by a group of power transistors mounted on heat sinks because they get very hot - they are essentially just current buffers/amplifiers that have no voltage gain - meaning if you put 20 volts to their input they produce 20 volts on their outputs - only they can drive very low impedance loads like that from a loudspeaker.

In a class D amplifier you have the same thin g but instead of inefficient class A/B current amplifiers you have a pair of on/off MOSFETS that stay on loner or shorter periods of time to produce more or less output to a loudspeaker. TRansistors of all kinds are very efficient when all the way on or all the way off.

At the input of the class D stage you have a simple voltage comparator circuit. It has two states - on or off and is comparing the voltage out of the voltage gain stage to a reference triangle wave generator. If the voltage of the input exceeds that of the triangle wave ramp then the comparator produces an on signal - if less then it is off. In this way, the outputs simply turn on or off for longer or shorter periods of time relative to the input signal as compared to the voltage ramp.

But on any amp, including a class D the very first thing you need to do is increase the voltage from whatever is feeding the power amplifier (usually a preamp or a DAC) to produce a higher voltage. In the case of a traditional power amp that's usually about 30 times and in a class D about 6 times. Most designers are lazy and just use an IC op amp to give the 6 times gain. We don't do that - instead using a discrete class A gain stage (actually an op amp in function) with high voltage to improve linearity and sound better."

kevinh · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jul 2012, 10:12 pm »

Just to clarify, On the DIYaudio thread on the NCore 400 modules use a discrete (op amp) front end, Bruno and Jan Peter asked the folks what they wanted and they requested the Discrete front end rather than the Integrated circuit op amp.

jhm731 · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 05:48 pm »

Here's the latest on the PS Audio amp development:

"Well, here's the deal. I am not using the actual N Core technology which is their new feedback model - of which they only have two models - a 1200 watt per channel OEM version and a much smaller DIY version. The one we are using is the larger 400 unit and it's the one I have fallen in love with. Most Hypex models require an analog input stage - most people throw an IC op amp there and call it good - a couple of folks have used a tube input stage to great affect - something I would support - and others have gone differently as well.

What I am doing is applying a new version of our class A FET based input stage to drive the Hypex module and it really sounds stunning. I want to place this in a PerfectWave-like chassis - meaning it's the same dimensions for width and depth, same shape, but a little less high and without a touch screen.

My target price for the amp is $1995. I am trying to decide right now if it should be an integrated or just a straight power amp.

We are also thinking about coming out with a smaller 1/2 width chassis in the PerfectWave shape, using the next size down Hypex modules, hybrid class A input stage with a couple of inputs and an analog volume control - perhaps even a cool passively equalized phono stage - in an integrated format and shoot for $1195.

That's what's on the drawing boards in Paul's head."

Barry_NJ · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 05:59 pm »

Quote from: jhm731 on 23 Jul 2012, 05:48 pm

Snip...

"Well, here's the deal. I am not using the actual N Core technology which is their new feedback model - of which they only have two models - a 1200 watt per channel OEM version and a much smaller DIY version. The one we are using is the larger 400 unit and it's the one I have fallen in love with."

Snip...

"My target price for the amp is $1995. I am trying to decide right now if it should be an integrated or just a straight power amp.

We are also thinking about coming out with a smaller 1/2 width chassis in the PerfectWave shape, using the next size down Hypex modules, hybrid class A input stage with a couple of inputs and an analog volume control - perhaps even a cool passively equalized phono stage - in an integrated format and shoot for $1195."

Snip...

If I read that correctly, it sounds like Paul is not using NCore technology but the older UcD technology that Bruno stated would be benifiting from some trickle down from the NCore. It certainly seems to be priced that way as well.

jtwrace · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 06:14 pm »

Quote from: jhm731 on 23 Jul 2012, 05:48 pm

Here's the latest on the PS Audio amp development:

"Well, here's the deal. I am not using the actual N Core technology which is their new feedback model - of which they only have two models - a 1200 watt per channel OEM version and a much smaller DIY version. The one we are using is the larger 400 unit and it's the one I have fallen in love with. Most Hypex models require an analog input stage - most people throw an IC op amp there and call it good - a couple of folks have used a tube input stage to great affect - something I would support - and others have gone differently as well.

What I am doing is applying a new version of our class A FET based input stage to drive the Hypex module and it really sounds stunning. I want to place this in a PerfectWave-like chassis - meaning it's the same dimensions for width and depth, same shape, but a little less high and without a touch screen.

My target price for the amp is $1995. I am trying to decide right now if it should be an integrated or just a straight power amp.

We are also thinking about coming out with a smaller 1/2 width chassis in the PerfectWave shape, using the next size down Hypex modules, hybrid class A input stage with a couple of inputs and an analog volume control - perhaps even a cool passively equalized phono stage - in an integrated format and shoot for $1195.

That's what's on the drawing boards in Paul's head."

Can you post the link where this was said?

srb · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 06:32 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 23 Jul 2012, 06:14 pm

Can you post the link where this was said?

Nothing new from Paul since that post (which was apparently this morning), but here is the PS Audio forum link to the topic New PS Audio Amplifier:

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/#/discussion/comment/36580

Steve

jtwrace · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 06:37 pm »

Quote from: srb on 23 Jul 2012, 06:32 pm

Nothing new from Paul since that post (which was apparently this morning), but here is the PS Audio forum link to the topic New PS Audio Amplifier:

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/#/discussion/comment/36580

Steve

jtwrace · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 07:03 pm »

Quote from: jhm731 on 23 Jul 2012, 05:48 pm

The one we are using is the larger 400 unit

So it must be the UcD module. The UcD400HG. Maybe.???

http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD400OEM_datasheet.pdf

jackman · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 07:07 pm »

The pricing is very attractive, $1,995 for an amp! Possibly an integrated for that price. If this is accurate, when the launch the product, I'm very interested. An integrated at this price would be a real bargain.

I'm holding off on my DIY Ncore, if PS can get a commercial Ncore amp or integrated amp on the market within the next 5-6 months. It would be particularly cool if they would use a compact case. Hmmmm.

jhm731 · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 07:31 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 23 Jul 2012, 07:07 pm

The pricing is very attractive, $1,995 for an amp! Possibly an integrated for that price. If this is accurate, when the launch the product, I'm very interested. An integrated at this price would be a real bargain.

I'm holding off on my DIY Ncore, if PS can get a commercial Ncore amp or integrated amp on the market within the next 5-6 months. It would be particularly cool if they would use a compact case. Hmmmm.

Based on Paul's post the planned PS amp(s) will not be using the NCore technology. Looks like they'll use an OEM UcD module with a PS Audio designed class A FET based input stage.

It will be interesting to see how these products compare to other products using the OEM NCore modules.

I agree the projected pricing is very attractive. Certainly sounds more reasonable than charging $9K for putting some stock OEM NCore modules in a box.

Paul has also posted an interesting series on op-amps:

http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/good-bad-ugly/7457/
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/sounding-harsh-compressed/7472/
http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/op-amps-power-supplies/7490/

*Scotty* · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 07:42 pm »

That's considerably less exciting news, I find myself completely underwhelmed.
The bean counters have struck again.
Scotty

kevinh · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 09:18 pm »

A UcD module with the NCore enhancements that Bruno talked about could fill the bill.

minimus · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm »

As an owner of the Perfect Wave DAC & Transport, I do have faith that PS Audio will ultimately make a very good sounding amp. I do not expect them to bring it to market any time soon, as PS Audio has generally been behind schedule in releasing digital components in the last few years. They were very behind schedule in releasing the network Bridge and they are still working on a NAS server to use with the Bridge. In other words, don't hold your breath if you are waiting for a reasonably priced amp based on Hypex modules.

hifial · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Jul 2012, 12:00 am »

I like and respect Paul of PS Audio and own the PW DAC, Bridge and Transport but I too am underwhelmed. From Paul's earlier posts on PSA forum and from my and others questions on the forum to Paul I think most would have thought it was the NC1200 that he was talking about. There is no way one can build an NC1200 for $1995. I know this because a close friend who is licensed from Hypex to build NC1200 amps, has been kind enough to ask for my suggestions and allowed me to see the costs. I do not know the finale selling price but his target price is a lot less then $9,000.00. He is using all premium parts and I think it will surprise a lot of people. He hopes to have production versions sometime in Sept. I have not heard it yet but hope to in a few weeks. When I do I will post my thoughts and try to not be a FAN BOY. It is possible that Paul came to the table too late for the NC1200 as there is word that Hypex has closed any further licensing of the NC1200, at least for now. Or he did not want to build an amp that would be in the range of $8-10,000 or saw an opportunity with his tweaks to build a great sounding amp that would compete with the NC400 DIY that would sell for what most DIY would spend.
And I believe Paul is wrong about the "IC OP amp" on the NC1200. Maybe on the UcD. I will get the specific but I believe you can not use "IC" on the NC1200 from what I remember.

IMHO, Al.