[doug s.]

There's a difference between manufacturing arbitrarily pricing products as you suggest and some people wanting to buy things because of a price.  But if that makes you happy because you feel like you've backed me into a corner, that's awesome.

I still fail to understand your point on any of this.

Why bother posting on a hifi forum if all you are going to do is whine that things cost too much?

i am not whining.  and, where have i ever whined that audio things in general cost too much, let alone your assertion that it is all i do here?  did i not yust get finished rattling off a bunch of very expensive gear i would be sampling, if i had the wherewithal? 

i think you should not be so defensive.  and, i didn't back you into any corners, you freely stated your comments about the wandersteens yourself, w/o any assistance from me.   

not all mfr's price things arbitrarily high.  i appreciate what you said re: the price retail price of gear compared to the cost of mfr, and for the most part, i agree w/it.  but, the fact is, that some mfr's do price their product outrageously high, and what they are selling is the high price alone, regardless of the sound quality.  and, as i mentioned before, as this thread is about high end audio's "biggest rip-off", and my initial comments were addressed to expensive cables, i submit that all mfr's who sell cable for $20k and more are selling price, they are not trying to sell quality sounding cables.  if they happen to sound good, it is pretty-much coincidental, and it is irrelevant to what they're trying to sell.  imo of course.   

doug s.

[Letitroll98]

That's great, but that won't affect those manufacturers who will always have ultra expensive components for the top of the high end market as I already stated.

Normally I would completely agree, but looking at the Line Magnetic Audio importer's web site (Tone Audio) I saw this baby...



Line Magnetic LM-1 212 Single Ended mono amplifier with tungar filament supplies.



I don't see a price, but I'll bet you could tell anybody you paid $100,000 a pair.  I wonder what they do go for and if Geo will be offered a discount for the upgrade.    

[geowak]

I don't have a problem with any manufacturer selling super expensive gear. If the wealthiest consumers will buy it, great. Why should that bother me?

I will laugh at this, since I see some people buy audio gear at twice, three times and four times the price of what I pay for my gear and they sell it later.

I do have a problem with deceptive advertisements and marketing hype that is false or untrue.
It is "buyer beware" with regard to everything you buy...

[ltr317]

Tonepub-

True enough about the quality and consistency of Chinese labor. But I think that the companies which (are) adopting a better QC system are getting great results, such as Primaluna. But also from the standpoint of a Chinese designer and manufacturer, I think they could do the same thing that Honda and Toyota did in the automobile industry of the US some
30-40 years ago. China is capable of making great products at very competitive prices or better.

The Chinese could adopt the Japanese work ethic but I doubt it.  Two very different cultures and attitudes.  Also the Japanese fifty/sixty years ago were trying to rebound from WW II.  Their ability to copy and improve US and European designs made their economy grow fairly quickly, with national pride a major factor.  The Chinese's major factor on the other hand is just to make a fast buck.  Whether by producing good or mediocre products is secondary to making a fast buck. Of course, if the designer is European or US (like Prima Luna as you mentioned),  QC is determined by them and not by the Chinese.     

[srb]

Line Magnetic LM-1 212 Single Ended mono amplifier with tungar filament supplies.

I don't see a price, but I'll bet you could tell anybody you paid $100,000 a pair.  I wonder what they do go for and if Geo will be offered a discount for the upgrade.

They appear to have sold for $26,400 each in 2009, but ..... it looks like you would be able listen to music AND perform a number of mad scientist lab experiments.

Steve

[geowak]

I contacted LM Audio and they told me I can only afford the wheels of the unit pictured.
 

[Letitroll98]

They appear to have sold for $26,400 each in 2009, but ..... it looks like you would be able listen to music AND perform a number of mad scientist lab experiments.

Steve

Such a bargain, cheap at half the price.

[JohnR]

Looks like a synergistic match here:

 

[Diamond Dog]

China is capable of making great products at very competitive prices or better.

Absolutely. However, some of said products are helped along by China's notorious disregard for intellectual property rights. I also have reservations about how labour costs are kept low there, although in all fairness I also have reservations about how we are starting to lower labour costs here in the West. There is also the here today-gone later today nature of some Chinese-manufactured brands to consider.
Another issue which affects the potential desirability of attractively-priced Chinese-made goods has less to do with the Chinese themselves: it's not uncommon to see Western firms shift manufacturing offshore and then contract Chinese manufacturers to build to a price-point which compromises quality but allows the Western firms to maximize profitability. That's a rip-off.
As you said, the Chinese are capable of building great products but they are also capable of building real crap if that's what you pay them to do. As always, caveat emptor.
There's also the repercussions that arise from shifting our purchasing to offshore-produced goods at the expense of local manufacturing to consider.
I can see where some might be considering this post a tad zenophobic but it's not meant that way. I'm looking at a pair of Chinese-made tubes sticking out of my US-built preamp as I type this. It's also not lost on me that while some wonderful hi-fi comes out of Japan ( I am lucky enough to own an example), they too once had a reputation for churning out cheap and sketchy goods. I just wonder if in a few years we'll be interacting in a discussion about whatever happened to all the Western-made hi-fi ? But such is the way of the world and it moves on with or without us.

D.D.

[Diamond Dog]

They appear to have sold for $26,400 each in 2009, but ..... it looks like you would be able listen to music AND perform a number of mad scientist lab experiments.
Steve

Can't beat that !

D.D.

[dflee]

One of the reasons I'm looking at Musical Fidelity for a dac. While they now have higher series equipment, put one dac out and it's in the lowest of the line. They didn't come out with a higher priced unit to go with up the scale line and state the unit is the best they have even for the cost no object units. That seems to be striking a cord with me.
I have read every post here and thank everyone for the input. This has been quite enjoyable thus far.

[Quiet Earth]

I don't have anything useful left to say on this worn out topic ( I doubt if anyone does  ) and please take this with the smallest grain of salt, but it just occurred to me who is the biggest rip off in high end audio and in pro audio too. Behringer. It's not just because that's what they do for a living - rip off other manufacturer's products and undercut them with cheaper labor and lousy parts - but it's because they are the most well known of the rip-off specialists.

No tax and free shipping. That makes it all OK. I want it and I want it now.

 

Ok, let's go back to beating Tone up some more to see if we can get another human reaction out of him........ 

[srb]

One of the reasons I'm looking at Musical Fidelity for a dac. While they now have higher series equipment, put one dac out and it's in the lowest of the line. They didn't come out with a higher priced unit to go with up the scale line and state the unit is the best they have even for the cost no object units.

Musical Fidelity decided not to produce a standalone DAC for a few of their higher end lines above the M1 series, but instead chose to incorporate a CD transport into the DAC.

They have the $13,000 AMSCD CD/DAC and the $2500 M6CD CD/DAC.

Steve

[DaveC113]

That seems to be striking a cord with me.

Lol, those Nordost Odins must have made you mad, huh? 

[ltr317]

Normally I would completely agree, but looking at the Line Magnetic Audio importer's web site (Tone Audio) I saw this baby...



Line Magnetic LM-1 212 Single Ended mono amplifier with tungar filament supplies.



I don't see a price, but I'll bet you could tell anybody you paid $100,000 a pair.  I wonder what they do go for and if Geo will be offered a discount for the upgrade.   

That's fugly!    This is more like it. 

[doug s.]

One of the reasons I'm looking at Musical Fidelity for a dac. While they now have higher series equipment, put one dac out and it's in the lowest of the line. They didn't come out with a higher priced unit to go with up the scale line and state the unit is the best they have even for the cost no object units. That seems to be striking a cord with me.
I have read every post here and thank everyone for the input. This has been quite enjoyable thus far.

buy this, enjoy, don't look back...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107518.msg1106720;topicseen#new

doug s.

[JerryM]

That's fugly!    This is more like it. 

This is more to my taste.

[Rclark]

That's fugly!    This is more like it. 

 fugly is cool though, as long as it's a pure performance piece. This is predominantly a guy's hobby, although we have to defend against WAF, like random artillery fire that stuff, and I like the frankenstein's lab lookin' thing just as much as what you posted.

[ltr317]

   JerryM, to each his own.  I don't have to worry about WAF because I'm divorced, but that piece grates on my artistic sensibilities. 

[totoro]

There's a difference between manufacturing arbitrarily pricing products as you suggest and some people wanting to buy things because of a price.  But if that makes you happy because you feel like you've backed me into a corner, that's awesome.

I still fail to understand your point on any of this.

Why bother posting on a hifi forum if all you are going to do is whine that things cost too much?

One might turn this around and ask why you bother to contribute to this particular discussion on an internet forum if you are primarily going to contribute ad hominems, arguments by (false) assertion, no true scotsman arguments, and arguments by self authority. And one might also point out that your arguments by self authority in this thread have pretty much veered into the territory of rampant self promotion.

And, given the fact that in one post you claim I am wrong in saying that these goods are Veblen goods, because people never buy this stuff for prestige , and in later post offhandedly mention that people buy things based on their high price, you haven't even managed to be self consistent.