Ncore Improvements

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dan92075

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #260 on: 14 Sep 2012, 07:41 am »
Bruno himself said he doesn't prefer one over the other.

I think we are in a transitional phase where we can now have utterly transparent amps but people are still expecting a "sound", so someone can be there to deliver it.


From all the reviews I have read it seems everyone agrees the bass and mid-range are utterly transparent - but I see quite a few posts now regarding that the highs are not quite perfect on the Nc400

If that is the case (and I am just going by reviews here, haven't heard the nc400 myself)  then that would not imply people expecting a "sound"  but rather there is a lack of sound, which is very different. . .

Ric Schultz

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #261 on: 14 Sep 2012, 08:14 am »
Everyone agrees the midrange is utterly transparent?  That is not what I have read.  I don't think the midrange is perfect.  I think it lacks some body and involvement and also air at the top end.  I expect modding and running them balanced will bring it around.

jtwrace

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Re: Re: Hypex NC1200 mono blocks listening impressions
« Reply #262 on: 14 Sep 2012, 11:03 am »




Ric

The biggest imporovement you can do to this build would be to follow Bruno's very important directions per his data sheet. 

Section 7.1


Ric Schultz

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #263 on: 14 Sep 2012, 05:26 pm »
I could be wrong, but I don't think the output wires are anywhere near the AC or Power supply wires where they would interfere with the sound. "Biggest Improvement"?

jtwrace

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #264 on: 14 Sep 2012, 05:31 pm »
I could be wrong, but I don't think the output wires are anywhere near the AC or Power supply wires where they would interfere with the sound. "Biggest Improvement"?
I'll disagree.  If Bruno says to twist them, I'd twist them no matter what.  He has said it multiple times....

audio-heaven

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #265 on: 14 Sep 2012, 05:43 pm »
I'll disagree.  If Bruno says to twist them, I'd twist them no matter what.  He has said it multiple times....
I must back jtwrace up on this one, I actualy heard the improvement after my (admittedly longer) speaker wires were twisted together in my UCD 400HGs (they were not close to the AC either) and I have no reason to believe it would be any different withe the Ncore.

Might as well do it what have you got to loose  :thumb:

mikeeastman

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #266 on: 14 Sep 2012, 11:39 pm »
I just ordered some nylon bolts,washes,nuts and wing nuts, that Ric suggested ,but I had to order a 100 of each which is way more than I could ever use, so if anyone wants to try these send me a buck or two( depending on how many you want) to cover postage and there yours, PM if interested.

dan92075

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #267 on: 15 Sep 2012, 05:43 am »
Everyone agrees the midrange is utterly transparent?  That is not what I have read.  I don't think the midrange is perfect.  I think it lacks some body and involvement and also air at the top end.  I expect modding and running them balanced will bring it around.


Exactly - the air at the top end is what I was talking about when I referring to the highs.
As far as the midrange I dont recall any critiques in that area but perhaps I missed that. .

In any case, I am very curious what kind of mods do you think would improve the top end?

gstew

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #268 on: 16 Sep 2012, 03:46 am »





Here's another sorta-tweak implementation of an NC400/SMPS600 combo...

1. Tightly twisted AC cable, harness from SMPS to module, and speaker cables

2. Ric Schultz's speaker wire clamp setup

3. Hard-wired AC cable, based on a PC Ric used to sell

4. Shortened, almost minimal-length input cable

5. Some damping material on the case

6. Placed on a TipToe'd maple cutting block with Herbies Iso-cups between the block & the cases and various damping weights & dampers on the case top.

7. AMB fuses

I have them wired with Bruno's preferred input setup, but my sources are single-ended. So I modified my cables to replace the output side RCAs with XLRs.

I also played with power conditioning... I have a PS Audio Soloist filtered outlet available in addition to straight into the wall and can add Hammond Chokes as desired in parallel with the AC. The NCore started being plugged into the Soloist, but ended up straight into the wall with no chokes.

Although they showed some promise from a detail & control perspective at first, the musical presentation was not very coherent compared to a pair of B&O IcePower-based EVS 500M's from Ric. The highs/mids/lows did not gell into single notes, but seemed disconnected. Also the  highs started out a bit harsh & hashy to my ears.

On the good side, bass was impressive in control & depth, although they didn't seem to go lower than the EVS 500Ms.

Now I've got 250-350 playing hours on the NCores... Better, very good in many ways. The note-level musical coherence has improved to where I generally don't notice a disconnect anymore. Mids-through-highs are cleaner, maybe still a bit emphasized compared to what I'm used to. The ultra-control of the bass has moved into the mids and they are very clear and lifelike.

But they are still not blowing me away... basically, they are still not making music for me. Overall musical coherent, flow, and urge is still not there strongly and is very dependent on the cleanliness of the powerline. Some of this may be the a bit of midrange body missing that others have mentioned. Then there's still a bit of emphasis and sometimes glare in the upper mids-treble.

When I put the EVS B&O Ice-Power-based EVS500M's back in, the musical coherence, flow, and urge come back immediately. The NCores are technically better amps... but I don't feel disappointed putting the 500M's back in. That's not a good sign!

I'm planning to give them more break-in time... I was reminded that some equipment takes a long time when I ran across a review of the Bel Canto REF500M's in Positive Feedback. The reviewer said:


"The mid-range became gradually textured, and lost for good a certain forwardness that waxed and waned with periodic irregularity during the early weeks; REF500M's treble region, that problem child, initially akin to a young one suffering of an unhappy combination of pulmonary insufficiency with whooping cough, happily healed from its youthful malaise whence the amplifiers approached 1000 hours of operation, and commenced to bloom into a delightfully lyrical maturity, almost devoid of residual constrictions.

Totally unforeseen, the steadily growing authority of the REF500M remained my greatest surprise. Well past the 1000 hours mark, at least until 1500 hours of music making, REF500Ms kept maturing in ease, a general sense of expansiveness, a surprising comfort in handling complex and intense dynamics, and a considerable solidity even in the most demanding fff (fortissimo) orchestral passages."

I also have the same experience as Ric reported with warmup. My experience with most gear since the early '80s has been a 1-2 hour warmup. The NC400/SMPS600 combo does not come on song for me until after 5-6 hours. So they are on most of the time (just down for system changes or threatened thunderstorms).

I'm trying to come up with additional changes that will improve the musicality while preserving the good points of the NCores. My thoughts:

1. Change the input & output wiring. Even though its not fashionable today, I've liked MIT hookup wire for its ability to maintain note coherence. I've got some raw input connectors coming in and will rewire both the inputs and the outputs when they get here.

2. Try different input stage power. I think it's worth trying a linear supply on the front-end and driver supplies, at the very least adding some additional filtering as serengetiplains did.

3. Output filtering. Instead of modifying the board as Ric intends, I'll start with an inline choke/resistor filter. If that makes a positive difference I'll try Econotweaks Detail Magnifiers.

4. EMI Reduction using conductive foam between the module & PS & around the PS.

5. Since they sound their best when the powerline is at its best, I've got a PS Audio P10 coming that theoretically should produce 'weekend-clean' AC quality all the time.

If these produce good results, then I'll bridge them... sharp eyes might have noticed that my case layout allows room for a second NC400/SMPS600 combo. OTOH, James Romeyn's comments on the sound quality at various load impedences has me concerned... I don't know the actual impedence versus frequency of this speaker as the manufacturer made a limited number of them and never published it, but I'm guessing it's a 4-6 ohm load across the spectrum. As I understand it, bridging could worsen any sensitivity.

And I am gathering the parts to do a balanced DAC source, but that's a while away at this time.

Some likely extended-work travel may get in the way of this further experimentation until late fall. But if it happens, I'll arrange to bring them along and lend them out in that area (more details once I'm sure that it'll happen).

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. My 'as-minimilistic-as-I-can-get-it' system consists of:

1. A computer music server based on cics's cMP/cPlay setup (see monster threads on Audio Asylum on this) with the latest OpSys slimming tweaks and all-linear computer, sound card, and DAC power supplies. The sound card is the digital section of an ESI Juli@ that has been modified within an inch of it's life and the DAC is a small ESS ES9022-based DAC card available from poster EUVL over at DIYAudio.

2. A series stepped volume control based on a Daven broadcast-quality multiposition switch and using a nude-Vishay as a series element. Cables from the computer are MIT 330 Shotgun and to the amp are just a very short twisted pair of MIT hookup and all are hard-wired to switch. I generally use the music player's built-in SW volume control and run this physical control at full volume.

3. The amps.

4. A pair of Eminent Technology LFT-IV speakers, a sorta full-range planar magnetic with rebuilt crossovers. Speaker cables are nothing-special Monster Powerlines hard-wired at the speaker end.

5. A bunch of various AC, damping, and woo-woo tweaks that most of you really don't want to hear about.

cab

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #269 on: 16 Sep 2012, 03:57 am »
You might want to try them with a balanced source like the designer has recommended before all the other things......

Ric Schultz

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #270 on: 16 Sep 2012, 05:51 am »
Greg,
It is hard to tell from the picture but it looks like your power cable from the power supply to the amp module is twisted so tightly that it folds back on itself.  Yes?  If this is so then this is not good.  Tight twisting is good but loops or folds are bad.  You could untwist one or two turns and just have the cable stick up in the air a little bit.....then listen again and tell us what you hear....would be interesting to see if it makes a sonic improvement.

I will be modding/changing/lowering the values? of the output filter caps in about 7-10 days.   I am also going to dremel off the top of the output connectors (the screw and nut are steel....not good) so I can solder even larger output wires directly down on the board next to the brass pieces that will still be left.  I will report the sonic results.

rollo

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #271 on: 16 Sep 2012, 02:51 pm »
  Just curious to know if anyone has tried using an all Alum. enclosure rather than steel. Second would it be prudent to use a separate enclosure for the power supply ? You guys may consider using compressed wool under the circuit boards for dampening. Worked well with projects for us. If you have a powercable that you can settle on hard wire it to the board and eliminate the IEC.
     It would interesting to find out if a tubed input would make any difference with adding some body and soul.


charles

gstew

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #272 on: 16 Sep 2012, 06:26 pm »
  Just curious to know if anyone has tried using an all Alum. enclosure rather than steel. Second would it be prudent to use a separate enclosure for the power supply ? You guys may consider using compressed wool under the circuit boards for dampening. Worked well with projects for us. If you have a powercable that you can settle on hard wire it to the board and eliminate the IEC.  -SNIP-

Charles, thanks for the suggestions. My enclosure is aluminum (I almost NEVER use steel) and I do have the PC hard-wired SMPS. Also, I did not show it, but I do have some damping on the circuit boards and some of the larger caps. Violently agree with these! I will try some felt too, I saw this also from Mike Elliot's Alta Vista Audio site, but the couple of times I tried it before, I preferred using a combination of Herbie's Audio products and sheet-damping such as the 3-M & Dynamat.

I also agree on possibly a separate enclosure for the SMPSs. I really like the Genesis implementation of the UcD modules (see their website & the 6Moons Audio reviews of their amps), but I already had these enclosures & they seemed to be pretty good for a quick & dirty NC400 amp pair.


It is hard to tell from the picture but it looks like your power cable from the power supply to the amp module is twisted so tightly that it folds back on itself.  Yes?  If this is so then this is not good.  Tight twisting is good but loops or folds are bad.  You could untwist one or two turns and just have the cable stick up in the air a little bit.....then listen again and tell us what you hear....would be interesting to see if it makes a sonic improvement.

-SNIP-

I am also going to dremel off the top of the output connectors (the screw and nut are steel....not good) so I can solder even larger output wires directly down on the board next to the brass pieces that will still be left.  I will report the sonic results.

Thanks for the feedback Ric, Yes, the power cord does have a loop that is held by that tie-wrap. I'm putting the NC400 back in the system today or tomorrow as the PS Audio P10 is coming on Tuesday & I want to get used to them again before installing it. I'll pull the tie-wrap & re-route the power cable without the loop.

Long-term, my intention is to shorten the power cabling and twist or braid the high-voltage cables with grounds separate from the low-voltage cables and control cables (and some corresponding grounds). My gut-feel is that any of this will have a minimal effect, but heck, it's very easy to try the re-routing.

On dremeling the output connectors, you are a very brave man! I know if I tried it, I'd have metal filings shorting my NC400 modules!


You might want to try them with a balanced source like the designer has recommended before all the other things......

Thanks for the suggestion, cab. But that's easier for you to say than me to do!

First, while I have a few other good digital sources, none are balanced. So I have nothing on-hand to try.

Second, I live in a fairly isolated and rural part of Mississippi... not much high-end audio I can borrow and try easily nearby.

Third, my options for making balanced sources are fairly sizable projects (each are MUCH bigger than all of NCore implementation changes I listed) AND I want to be sure any new digital sources are sounding like I want them before I use them to assess the NCore in a balanced vs single-ended mode.

Fourth, if I can only get the NCore to sound the way I want with a balanced source, I should give up on them now. ALL of my current & future-project phono stages are single-ended. More than 1/2 of the output stage options I have for future digital sources are single-ended.  And I'm firmly committed to a minimalistic system with as few stages and connections as I can manage... my experence is that every stage adds its own sound and fidelity loss and that I get the best sound with only as many as I need to make it work and no more. 

So I hear what you are saying, but if I can't get them to sound as I desire single-ended, they aren't right for my system!

All, again thanks!

Greg in Mississippi

gstew

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PS Audio P10 Regenerator & NCore... initial impressions
« Reply #273 on: 19 Sep 2012, 01:23 am »
Update... the long-awaited PS Audio P10 arrived today. Neither the NCore or it are fully warmed up nor broken in, but I'm generally liking what I am hearing.

Increased mid texture & very smooth, inviting, 'golden' highs. Bass impact & dynamics may be diminished slightly and the lower mids thickened slightly, need to listen more.

Tonally, the NCore sound more like the IcePower-based amps now. But the detailing hasn't seemed to have diminished. Interesting!

What power conditioners have other used or has everyone else gone straight into the wall?

Haven't played with PCs or fuses yet... AMR fuse going in tonight, need to make up a short PC (only need about 18") & also try various combinations of straight into the wall or through the PS Soloist, with or without Hammond Chokes, etc..

Greg in Mississippi

jonbee

Re: PS Audio P10 Regenerator & NCore... initial impressions
« Reply #274 on: 19 Sep 2012, 02:52 am »
What power conditioners have other used or has everyone else gone straight into the wall?
I use a PS Audio powerplant premier. I like the quiet background, which makes it even more 3d. PS Audio highly recommended it for their icepower amps, which I had been using until the NCore.

cab

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #275 on: 20 Sep 2012, 06:46 pm »
Here is a perceptive quote from another forum that may be worth taking to heart:

"The Ncores are very high end amplifiers. And with out a equally high end source, their true potential is never revealed. I believe in matching all the components in the audio chain with components of similar quality. The end result is only as good as the weakest link. "

jtwrace

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #276 on: 20 Sep 2012, 06:47 pm »
Here is a perceptive quote from another forum that may be worth taking to heart:

"The Ncores are very high end amplifiers. And with out a equally high end source, their true potential is never revealed. I believe in matching all the components in the audio chain with components of similar quality. The end result is only as good as the weakest link. "

Yep. 

dBe

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #277 on: 22 Sep 2012, 02:53 am »
I'll disagree.  If Bruno says to twist them, I'd twist them no matter what.  He has said it multiple times....
+1  Be sure to twist them in the opposite direction from the internal amp wiring, too.

<><

Dave

Atlplasma

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Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #278 on: 9 Oct 2012, 01:49 pm »
This thread has been quiet for a while, so maybe I can get things going again.  :D

I used two of the Silicon Ray enclosures for my build and started with inexpensive IEC connectors from Parts Express. This weekend I replaced the IEC with Furutech FI-10 Gs. It could be wishful thinking, but I think the Furutech are providing a cleaner, more open sound for my system.

I'm considering replacing the speaker binding posts next. Again, I started with cheap parts for Parts Express. I would be interested in opinions on whether this is a useful upgrade and what members are using for this connection.

mjock3

Re: Ncore Improvements
« Reply #279 on: 10 Oct 2012, 06:08 pm »
I found the IEC to make a nice difference as well. I was quite surprised as to the degree of difference. I also changed the fuse out when they went on sale at VH Audio and was pleased with that. I used Vampire binding posts, but did no comparison with others. Though down the road I will try what Rich had suggested. My wire came yesterday from Hypex. I hope to get it in today or tomorrow.  :green: