Ncore Improvements

Phil · « **Reply #60 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 02:36 am »

serengetiplains,

just curious: How long do you live with the stock amp before replacing parts?

serengetiplains · « **Reply #61 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 02:47 am »

Phil, I'll probably let the amplifiers roast awhile to burn in, maybe a week or more depending how their sound changes. Then depending how busy I am, I'll then spend some time poking around the circuit to find critical chips and resistors. Add some time to order some resistors (they'll be the first to be changed). It's looking like a couple to three weeks thereabouts.

Phil · « **Reply #62 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 03:32 am »

thanks. Would love to see some photos of the process if you have the time and interest in doing so.

Not that I'll ever have the skill to do that kind of work, but find it interesting nevertheless.

serengetiplains · « **Reply #63 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 03:42 am »

I'll post photos along the way to show people what I'm doing.

Rclark · « **Reply #64 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 05:14 am »

Now you do realize that the ncores were designed to have and are reported to have no "sound", so when you say you are probably going to have a worse measuring amp, you do realize that you are merely implementing changes, not improvements, and are probably only going to color the amp (to some unknown degree at this point). Improvements are highly unlikely, changes, yes.

If you are successfully able to change the sound, then you will have ruined the whole point of the amp: high power, neutral transparent nature, blackest noise floor.

"I can't hear the amp?" .. "Oh don't worry, I'll fix that."

serengetiplains · « **Reply #65 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 05:31 am »

Nice belief, Rclark. I don't share it.

Btw, you must mean not "highly unlikely," but "impossible." Yes?

Rclark · « **Reply #66 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 05:43 am »

No, highly unlikely, not impossible. Clearly you are very experienced in this field, but I'm going with my instincts.

We'd ALL like to see if they can be improved, but they must be legitimate improvements, as in lowering noise floor even further, lowering distortion even further, etc. Chasing a sound? Doesn't seem like the right direction to be going with this amp.

audio-heaven · « **Reply #67 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 10:28 am »

There seems to be one HUGE factor completely missing in these deliberations.... the rest of the system! For those people who have yet to hear the Ncore... myself included (mine are currently under construction) all that we have to go on apart from excellent measurements are other peoples personal opinions in their own and vary varied systems. Having read all of the reviews that I can find the general consensus to emerge on this amp would appear to be it's neutrality and a lack of any “added character”.

So why is it 'I ask myself' that there are so many people that are seemingly confident that it's the amp that could do with some modifying and improvement and not the rest of their system? Surely when dropping an amp as transparent as the Ncore into your system it could easily show up previously masked characteristics and hidden nasties' of your source, speakers, cabling, room.......

If this is the case then by modifying the Ncore you could well be trying to fix a problem in your other components by “improving” the Ncore, I'm not sure that would that be a good idea?

What we have here is a set of eternally moving goalposts, I'm not saying that it's not possible to 'improve' or 'tailor' the sound to your taste by doing a few mods but why instantly blame the amp for any shortcomings that you hear? How does the Ncore sound with the very finest sources and speakers available? I would suggest that if the Ncore consistently comes up short when paired with a good selection of the best gear out there then that would be the time to consider doing some surgery on these amps.

There are so many variables that a fair appraisal becomes virtually impossible and we all have to make do with real world tests in multitude of different set ups when attempting to evaluate the Ncore amps. This is not unique to just the Ncore amps of course.

After spending many years building my own diy hi fi and modding stuff myself the biggest lesson I have learned that you must look at your system as a whole, the Ncore will only ever be as good as the weakest link in the chain.

Anyway I wish the pioneering Ncore modders the very best of luck.

cab · « **Reply #68 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 01:17 pm »

The point that the distortion of the ncore is much less that other components in the chain has been raised previously.

The ncore was made to be as neutral sounding as possible. Based on dozens of reviews, as well as the designer's own comments, it would seem it is extremely neutral. The distortion is among the lowest of any amp on the market.

The only way this amp can be improved is to make it even more neutral as that is the design goal as stated by Bruno...Very interesting to see how someone can make it more neutral and without any measurements, determine they have succeeded.

OzarkTom · « **Reply #69 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 01:32 pm »

Quote from: cab on 29 Jun 2012, 01:17 pm

The point that the distortion of the ncore is much less that other components in the chain has been raised previously.

The ncore was made to be as neutral sounding as possible. Based on dozens of reviews, as well as the designer's own comments, it would seem it is extremely neutral. The distortion is among the lowest of any amp on the market.

The only way this amp can be improved is to make it even more neutral as that is the design goal as stated by Bruno...Very interesting to see how someone can make it more neutral and without any measurements, determine they have succeeded.

Just sit back and watch. If they fail, everyone can laugh and make fun of them.

And what about soundstage and imaging? That too cannot be improved?

cab · « **Reply #70 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 01:42 pm »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 29 Jun 2012, 01:32 pm

Just sit back and watch. If they fail,

How will success or failure be determined?

Some people can't help messing with things. I wish all who attempt ncore mods the best of luck....I think I will leave mine alone and trust that Bruno made the most of things.

bhakti · « **Reply #71 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 02:29 pm »

Everything can be improved. And sometimes, good things come from just trying. If we didn't try, then we may all still be driving horse driven buggies.

No offense to the Amish!

I look forward to seeing what people can do with the ncores - objectively or subjectively.

serengetiplains · « **Reply #72 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 10:22 pm »

Yes, everything can be improved. No component is perfect. I'm quite sure regulating (or further regulating) supplies for the Ncore will bring greater clarity and see-through, as will, among other things, replacing critical resistors with Vishays.

There's no one to please in any of this but ... you, or me. Objective, subjective, measurable or not, I'll be listening to a fine amplifier, very probably made finer. But that's something I'll determine for my own purposes.

Rclark · « **Reply #73 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 10:29 pm »

You know... I was going to suggest, if this is feasable, perhaps you could mod your Ncores, and then send them to Mike Galusha for testing and analysis???

OzarkTom · « **Reply #74 on:** 29 Jun 2012, 10:53 pm »

Quote from: Rclark on 29 Jun 2012, 10:29 pm

You know... I was going to suggest, if this is feasable, perhaps you could mod your Ncores, and then send them to Mike Galusha for testing and analysis???

Or you can send them to me for serious listening analysis.

jtwrace · « **Reply #75 on:** 30 Jun 2012, 12:07 am »

Quote from: Rclark on 29 Jun 2012, 10:29 pm

You know... I was going to suggest, if this is feasable, perhaps you could mod your Ncores, and then send them to Mike Galusha for testing and analysis???

+1

Quote from: OzarkTom on 29 Jun 2012, 10:53 pm

Or you can send them to me for serious listening analysis.

But you still haven't even heard the stock one's....that's what the tour is for!

OzarkTom · « **Reply #76 on:** 30 Jun 2012, 12:19 am »

Quote from: jtwrace on 30 Jun 2012, 12:07 am

+1
But you still haven't even heard the stock one's....that's what the tour is for!

Yeah, sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!

serengetiplains · « **Reply #77 on:** 30 Jun 2012, 06:49 am »

I might be willing to send my completed amps out for listening or testing. They will be my summer amplifiers, as my main amps (under construction---SITs, opposite end of the amplifier spectrum) will generate enough heat to make summer operation a little warm in the listening room.

Regarding inductive effects of bypassing output rails with film capacitors, I wonder if the considerable HF inductance on those leads won't actually render pulse-stream-related voltages at those capacitors something of a lower-frequency analogue waveform? When I bypassed output capacitors on my Lyngdorf, I didn't notice anything more offensive than a slight upward tilt in the HFs. The amp seemed to remain quite stable. My hunch in adding those capacitors was that they would in any event still operate at lower frequencies, which is where I wanted their contribution.

kevinh · « **Reply #78 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 07:09 pm »

I have seen shielding discussed as it relates to the NCore amps. This coment from Bruno on the DIY audio thread shed some light on his thoughts:

For shielding to be effective it's got to be really close to the source. Chassis make lousy shields because anything you might be trying to shield against has already coupled into the wiring inside the chassis. If you want to use the chassis as a shield you need to have feed-through filters on every piece of wire. But that's something you'd only do if there was a problem to begin with... The NC400 is pretty quiet so I'd just pick the chassis on aesthetical grounds.

serengetiplains · « **Reply #79 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 08:26 pm »

Thanks for the note, Kevin. Bruno's comment makes sense, though he's there speaking only to outgoing radiation.

My plans are to box the Ncores and the smps separately. I'll bolt two chassis together for each channel, one on top of the other, and will attach the smps just above the Ncore modules in the now separated chassis compartments. This should allow wiring as short as 2", and will fully shield the power supply from the modules and both from incoming radiation.