Point of diminishing returns - For cables and interconnects.

music_lover_v2 · « **on:** 16 May 2012, 06:31 pm »

While I wait for my STs to come home, I thought I would get some opinion on speaker cables and interconnects. I would assume that this is not something like the speakers where you spotting a different sound is not that easy. But, I still see cables and interconnects costing from a few dollars to a few thousand dollars.
Ever since I bought my first Monster speaker cables from Bestbuy a few years ago (Hmm..

) I've always turned to Monoprice for my cable and interconnect needs.
Now, I have a new amp (Emotiva XPA-5) and pre/pro (Emotiva UMC-1) connected using the Monoprice Digital Coax cables. I'm thinking if I should upgrade.
Also, I'm waiting for my Salk STs with RAALs. So, I want to make sure that I hear the best out of these speakers.

So, is DIY the way to go.. Or, where is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to cables, interconnects?

Thanks!

mdfoy · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 May 2012, 06:39 pm »

Soundstring IC and SP are working out very nicely for me, Salk HT1 with Odyssey Khartago amps. Another really good one is Response Audio Clarity Labs Harvest II. What ever the choice, YMMV.

pstrisik · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 May 2012, 06:41 pm »

My opinion is that diminishing returns are significant with cables - maybe more so than other components. Once cable have decent conductivity and shielding, you are 99% of the way there. So my approach has been to buy decent cables at moderate cost and forget about it. It's pretty much a one time investment. So I probably have about $500 in power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables. It may be that I have even spent more than I need to, but it bought me peace of mind.

Blind listening tests I've read about haven't supported the improvements with exotic cables. Still many folks go for more expensive and exotic cables and swear by them. If it increases pleasure and satisfaction with the system, I say go for it. Whether it is placebo or real improvement, the subjective experience still improves and is therefore valid.

So what kind of audiophile are you in this regard?

All IMO only!

..........Peter

roscoeiii · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 May 2012, 06:50 pm »

I'd recommend starting a step or two above the Monoprice and Blue Jeans level of cables. There are a number of great options that will work well for you and likely be a noticeable improvement at the under or near $100 level.

But the good news is that it is possible to try some out before you buy if you are in the US. The Cable Company has an excellent lending library service, with a 5% of the cable's value charge that then is applied to any purchase that you make from them.

Or you can go used, with the idea that you wouldn't lose much except maybe shipping costs if you decide you want to sell those and try something else. I need to do a cable sell-off, and listed the cables I am looking to sell in the link below just before AK Fest. Lemme know if you are interested in any of them. They haven't gone into a FS ad yet, since I haven't had time to price them. My excess cables:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105773.0

pstrisik · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 May 2012, 06:53 pm »

I see you have Pangea AC-14 in your list. IIRC, that was the "best bang for the buck" power cord I opted for.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 May 2012, 07:01 pm »

Yes, I like that Pangea cord quite a bit. Both it and the Iron Lung are great PCs for under $50. I also really really liked the Shunyata Venom 3 cord.

Austin08 · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 May 2012, 07:04 pm »

Audio Art cables is one of those reliable cable company that I bumped into, recently. Their products are quite good at reasonable price. Give Robfritz.a call. He will customize to your need. Just my 2cts.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 May 2012, 07:28 pm »

Quote from: music_lover_v2 on 16 May 2012, 06:31 pm

While I wait for my STs to come home, I thought I would get some opinion on speaker cables and interconnects. I would assume that this is not something like the speakers where you spotting a different sound is not that easy. But, I still see cables and interconnects costing from a few dollars to a few thousand dollars.
Ever since I bought my first Monster speaker cables from Bestbuy a few years ago (Hmm.. ) I've always turned to Monoprice for my cable and interconnect needs.
Now, I have a new amp (Emotiva XPA-5) and pre/pro (Emotiva UMC-1) connected using the Monoprice Digital Coax cables. I'm thinking if I should upgrade.
Also, I'm waiting for my Salk STs with RAALs. So, I want to make sure that I hear the best out of these speakers.

So, is DIY the way to go.. Or, where is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to cables, interconnects
Thanks!

It's really difficult to determine a point of diminishing returns for everyone. Only your ears can decide that. Personally I've drawn the "diminishing returns" line at Morrow IC's ( MA2 and MA3 ) and Clearday ( Double-Shotgun) speaker cables. Not cheap, but not outrageous either. Both offer a very lifelike and transparent presentation without the fatigue factor setting in.

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 May 2012, 07:42 pm »

The point of diminishing returns for cables has been a moving target in my experience. My system has improved gradually as I've made changes over the years. Sometimes, a comparison of cables made slight if any changes. At other times, the right cable has has removed a "veil" or audibly improved the resolution of the system. System synergy is mysterious and often unpredictable.

My conclusion from this is to keep an open mind about cables and trust your ears (and checkbook) as to what constitutes a diminishing or a meaningful return for you at the time.

TJHUB · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 May 2012, 08:51 pm »

Quote from: Scottdazzle on 16 May 2012, 07:42 pm

The point of diminishing returns for cables has been a moving target in my experience. My system has improved gradually as I've made changes over the years. Sometimes, a comparison of cables made slight if any changes. At other times, the right cable has has removed a "veil" or audibly improved the resolution of the system. System synergy is mysterious and often unpredictable.

My conclusion from this is to keep an open mind about cables and trust your ears (and checkbook) as to what constitutes a diminishing or a meaningful return for you at the time.

This is a wise statement, and for the most part my experience as well. The right cables for me can make or break the sound in many ways. What you have to watch out for is the land of trade-offs. That is not a fun place to be, and I've been there often.

That said, I've landed on cables in my setup sourced from two fellow AC members that I just can't find anything to beat them. My favorite IC's are the Sweet Spot Reveal (copper version) from "Sonny", and the PCOCC speaker cables from "HT cOz". I've turned at least 6 of my friends onto both, and in every case each of them are still using each set of cables. I'm surprised that so many different people/systems are working with these cables. Some even purchased them after doing cable comparisons at my place. Both are definitely worth looking into, and both guys are just the best to work with. I can't recommend them enough, and their products are worth every penny.

Remember that things like cables react differently to many factors. No one product sounds the same for everyone. It's all about system synergy. You just have to find it for yourself sometimes.

Good luck with your adventure, you have some incredible speakers on the way. Congrats!

werd · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 May 2012, 10:11 pm »

The trick is to find cables that have a decent resale interest. Even if you spend a hefty amount they basically Can be passed along in the used market. It helps in finding your own point of diminishing returns.

Devil Doc · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 May 2012, 10:37 pm »

Have you moved your speakers around for the smoothest bass using an RTA? Have you treated your first reflection points? Have you installed bass traps? Whatever benefits, if any, that cables have, they are negligible compared to the benefits of the above. Until you've done those things, you might as well use zip cord and Rat Shack ICs

Doc

nature boy · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 May 2012, 10:40 pm »

I agree wit this statement. A revealing system can demonstrate the difference in cables - power, IC, etc.

NB

Quote from: Scottdazzle on 16 May 2012, 07:42 pm

The point of diminishing returns for cables has been a moving target in my experience. My system has improved gradually as I've made changes over the years. Sometimes, a comparison of cables made slight if any changes. At other times, the right cable has has removed a "veil" or audibly improved the resolution of the system. System synergy is mysterious and often unpredictable.

My conclusion from this is to keep an open mind about cables and trust your ears (and checkbook) as to what constitutes a diminishing or a meaningful return for you at the time.

Austin08 · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 May 2012, 10:42 pm »

Quote from: Devil Doc on 16 May 2012, 10:37 pm

Have you moved your speakers around for the smoothest bass using an RTA? Have you treated your first reflection points? Have you installed bass traps? Whatever benefits, if any, that cables have, they are negligible compared to the benefits of the above. Until you've done those things, you might as well use zip cord and Rat Shack ICs

Doc

+1, Well said. 100% agree

jriggy · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 May 2012, 11:11 pm »

Wanna make sure Grover Huffman IC,s are on your radar. 200 bux a pair (or 100 each)
Great cables! And great to have around for keepers even if you decide to go with something else later. they are so even, you can demo anything / gear changes with them.

music_lover_v2 · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 May 2012, 11:32 pm »

Thanks folks for all the feedback. One of the reasons I wanted to get some feedback was that I got a small store credit (around $90) against one of my purchases with Emotiva. I was thinking if I should buy their interconnects for that credit:
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/interconnects/products/xrca

So, I wanted to check if it is really worth it, and if it will make any difference from the Monoprice ones.

At this point, I'm in the dark. I have not heard any Salk speaker before. My speakers will be the first Salks I'll listen to. So, I don't know how they will sound with my Monoprice stuff in the first place... Once I get them, I'll start doing another round of auditions to realize how much better they are

Before I ordered the Salks, I did a bunch of auditions of the usual suspects. I don't even remember now how good/bad they sounded. All I remember is, none of them excited me

rajacat · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 May 2012, 11:37 pm »

Check out this thread on Ohno-Continuous Cast Copper
conductors(OCC) cables. I ordered a bunch of these and I'm entirely satisfied with my purchase.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104340.0

yetis · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 May 2012, 01:14 am »

Quote from: music_lover_v2 on 16 May 2012, 06:31 pm

While I wait for my STs to come home, I thought I would get some opinion on speaker cables and interconnects.

So, is DIY the way to go.. Or, where is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to cables, interconnects?

Thanks!

I think everyone goes through this insanity. That said, I think there are places where it makes sense. Recently I swapped out a stock HDMI cable for a DH labs HDMI cable and the results were astounding! Even my wife noted how much of an impact it had. Beyond that, I think that there is definitely a difference in digital coax. For instance, many digital coax are not true 75ohm, or 110ohm if your using balanced.

In your DIY question, I made my own Furutech power cables, mostly for something to do, but I think it helps. I recently made my own Furutech biwire cables, in anticipation of my SS8's, and my homemade Ncore monobock biwire amps! I will let you know what that goes.

grantc79 · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 May 2012, 04:45 am »

Quote from: music_lover_v2 on 16 May 2012, 06:31 pm

While I wait for my STs to come home, I thought I would get some opinion on speaker cables and interconnects. I would assume that this is not something like the speakers where you spotting a different sound is not that easy. But, I still see cables and interconnects costing from a few dollars to a few thousand dollars.
Ever since I bought my first Monster speaker cables from Bestbuy a few years ago (Hmm.. ) I've always turned to Monoprice for my cable and interconnect needs.
Now, I have a new amp (Emotiva XPA-5) and pre/pro (Emotiva UMC-1) connected using the Monoprice Digital Coax cables. I'm thinking if I should upgrade.
Also, I'm waiting for my Salk STs with RAALs. So, I want to make sure that I hear the best out of these speakers.

So, is DIY the way to go.. Or, where is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to cables, interconnects?

Thanks!

I have HT3's with an XPA-5 and I spent 80 bucks on the cables for my fronts and center.

If I was to ever upgrade I would go with a new amp with lots more power for the HT3's. More cables or interconnects has never crossed my mind.

cujobob · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 May 2012, 05:04 am »

You're better off going cheap on cables and spending the money on room treatments. Hell, modding your source, upgrading the crossover in your speakers, or running your source off batteries will make a much larger improvement in sound quality. If all that is in place, just do your homework and be sure the quality of parts used in whatever wires you decide on is high.