HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal

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TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #20 on: 17 May 2012, 12:43 am »
It might be kind of tough with a Dremel tool since the baffles are 1 1/2" thick.  That is quite a bit of material to remove with a Dremmel.  Careful work with a jig saw would be more like it.

- Jim

I can jig saw with the best of them.  Will you look into this for us?  If you do, you probably need to write a disclaimer that if any of us destroy our perfect Salk speakers, it's not on you.  :wink:

DMurphy

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #21 on: 17 May 2012, 02:05 am »
There is no question that I pefer the RAAL to the other ribbon tweeters Jim has tried.  But that's based in large part on instant A-B comparisons.   At last year's Capital Audio Fest, I played the Philharmonic 3's with the RAAL and the Philharmonic 1's with the Fountek (which I find very similar to the LCY's and G2's), and the reaction was mixed.  Some definitely preferred the Founteks.  They had more content in the treble region assoicated with the sssssssssssss sound.  People who preferred the Founteks found the RAAL a little bland.  I agree with Jim that RAAL's are dead accurate, and that might come across as bland on some material and to some people.  But the bottom line is that
it isn't worth the drama and cost to retrofit a Salk speaker with a G2 or LCY with the RAAL.  We're talking modest improvements (and only to the ears of some people) at a very high cost. 

WGH

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #22 on: 17 May 2012, 02:17 am »
Personally, I would use a router with a pattern bit. The RAAL template would be an inverted "U" shape that would slip over the speaker and wouldn't slip. Probably take three 1/2" deep passes with my 3 hp router. I would make another jig for the shallow rabbet. Using a rabbeting router bit and cleaning up the corners with a Dremel or carving chisels would work but it would never be perfect.

Here is what a RAAL cut out is supposed to look like:



A pattern bit:



A rabbet bit:




Wayne

ricardojoa

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #23 on: 17 May 2012, 02:24 am »
Does it really have to be flush mount or a surface is still possible?
Surface mount could be eaiser, flush mount might be too risky to damage the veneer.

DMurphy

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #24 on: 17 May 2012, 02:49 am »
Surface mount---baaaaad.  Really guys--this whole venture isn't worth it.  Whatever money you would spend to make it happen--give it to the poor. 

vortrex

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #25 on: 17 May 2012, 03:21 am »
why is surface mount bad?

WGH

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #26 on: 17 May 2012, 03:41 am »
why is surface mount bad?

Does ugly count? Why would you want to turn a beautiful speaker into a ghetto blaster?

vortrex

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #27 on: 17 May 2012, 03:54 am »
Does ugly count? Why would you want to turn a beautiful speaker into a ghetto blaster?

you lost me, not sure what that second comment means.


TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #28 on: 17 May 2012, 04:12 am »
Guys, no one is talking about routering a round hole to fit the rectangle version of the RAAL.  We are talking about getting a round RAAL tweeter and the internal hole needs modification.  Nothing on the finished outside of the speaker's baffle should be touched. 


TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #29 on: 17 May 2012, 04:22 am »
There is no question that I pefer the RAAL to the other ribbon tweeters Jim has tried.  But that's based in large part on instant A-B comparisons.   At last year's Capital Audio Fest, I played the Philharmonic 3's with the RAAL and the Philharmonic 1's with the Fountek (which I find very similar to the LCY's and G2's), and the reaction was mixed.  Some definitely preferred the Founteks.  They had more content in the treble region assoicated with the sssssssssssss sound.  People who preferred the Founteks found the RAAL a little bland.  I agree with Jim that RAAL's are dead accurate, and that might come across as bland on some material and to some people.  But the bottom line is that
it isn't worth the drama and cost to retrofit a Salk speaker with a G2 or LCY with the RAAL.  We're talking modest improvements (and only to the ears of some people) at a very high cost.

I completely understand your points here, but if a retrofit is possible, some of us may really want to consider it.  Besides, it's very tough to have Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy state the RAAL is that good, and I don't have them.  Again, I've heard the RAAL's in 4 different speakers.  I didn't like any of them, but I can't help thinking I'm missing something.  Although, there is the off chance you are all just wrong.  :P

Seriously though, I'd love to know what it would take.  Retrofitting the driver doesn't seem tough at all for those of us that are capable on some level with tools.  Swapping out, or retrofitting the crossovers shouldn't be a difficult task either.  So that just leaves the cost/benefit ratio.  Isn't that for the buyer to decide?  I know most Salk owners value your opinions very highly.  I certainly do.  But please understand that the smallest details really matter to some of us, and the money might be worth modifying our custom made speakers. 

Personally, I'd love to try the retrofit.  After all, it would be reversible, and I'll bet selling the parts if I didn't like things would be rather easy. 

 

Austin08

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #30 on: 17 May 2012, 05:03 am »
Well, here was my very first though about RAAL ribbon when I just got my SS8, my very first reaction was ”man, what's up with the high. Where is all the air and razor edges sharpness that I use to hear with my ex speakers”. The RAAL was sound a bit lean and lack of air. I did scare a bit but not for long. Days later, the RAAL's sound started to grow on me. I am now very happy with the RAAL. I think they are most accurate and neutral tweeter that I have ever heard. Just my 2cts.

funkmonkey

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #31 on: 17 May 2012, 05:21 am »
Should owners of speakers with G2 or LCY tweeters lust after the RAAL tweeter?  I don't think so.  My personal pair of SongTowers have the LCY tweeters installed and even though I could certainly make the swap, I have never been motivated to do so.  The G2 and the LCY are both great tweeters in their own right or we would never have used them in the first place.  So I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Really guys--this whole venture isn't worth it.  Whatever money you would spend to make it happen--give it to the poor.

pretty much says it all right there...  at least for me.  I went through a phase where I wanted to swap out the G2s for some shiny new RAALs, but I got over it.  My "old" HT3s sound amazing, period.

DMurphy

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #32 on: 17 May 2012, 02:19 pm »
Personally, I'd love to try the retrofit.  After all, it would be reversible, and I'll bet selling the parts if I didn't like things would be rather easy.

Hey--it's your money.  I'm still not sure I understand what the final tweeter installation would be .  You shouldn't surface mount tweeters.  That will introduce a bunch of diffraction peaks and dips, and you're spending your money on tweeters that have about the smoothest response available (assuming they're flush mounted). 

TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #33 on: 17 May 2012, 02:30 pm »
Hey--it's your money.  I'm still not sure I understand what the final tweeter installation would be .  You shouldn't surface mount tweeters.  That will introduce a bunch of diffraction peaks and dips, and you're spending your money on tweeters that have about the smoothest response available (assuming they're flush mounted).

Again, I never stated anything about surface mounting anything.  I would never even consider doing that.  The LCY's sit in a 110mm round hole.  The RAAL's are available in custom shapes.  One manufacturer uses a custom 102mm round RAAL tweeter.  If one was to purchase a custom 110mm round RAAL tweeter, it is my understanding that the INSIDE of the hole would require some modification as the rear of the LCY is of a different shape and orientation compared to the RAAL.  I hope that makes sense.

I'm not saying I'd do the retrofit for sure, and certainly not without knowing the cost and required changes.  I'm only saying it seems 100% viable, and I'd like to know how much. 

ricardojoa

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #34 on: 17 May 2012, 03:49 pm »
Again, I never stated anything about surface mounting anything.  I would never even consider doing that.  The LCY's sit in a 110mm round hole.  The RAAL's are available in custom shapes.  One manufacturer uses a custom 102mm round RAAL tweeter.  If one was to purchase a custom 110mm round RAAL tweeter, it is my understanding that the INSIDE of the hole would require some modification as the rear of the LCY is of a different shape and orientation compared to the RAAL.  I hope that makes sense.

I'm not saying I'd do the retrofit for sure, and certainly not without knowing the cost and required changes.  I'm only saying it seems 100% viable, and I'd like to know how much.

I think the hard part would be getting the 110 mm round faceplate from Raal. That would be custom order and that may require a large number of orders. Thats just my guess.

TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #35 on: 17 May 2012, 03:57 pm »
I think the hard part would be getting the 110 mm round faceplate from Raal. That would be custom order and that may require a large number of orders. Thats just my guess.

Nope.  That's the easy part.  And it's not pricey at all.  I will share info when I can. 

One thing to note is that the RAAL seems to be designed for just such custom orders.  The faceplates are nothing more than basic flat plastic that can be cut to whatever the customer needs.  Not much of a load on engineering there.  I don't know this for a fact, but from everything I've seen thus far, this seems true.

bigbwb

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #36 on: 17 May 2012, 04:15 pm »
Terry, are you jealous of my round RAAL faceplates:)
Seriously though, I get a kick out of your comments.  You mention you dont really care for the RAAL's in comparison to your LCY's but yet you want to retrofit the RAAL?

Im confused :duh:

TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #37 on: 17 May 2012, 04:18 pm »
Terry, are you jealous of my round RAAL faceplates:)
Seriously though, I get a kick out of your comments.  You mention you dont really care for the RAAL's in comparison to your LCY's but yet you want to retrofit the RAAL?

Im confused :duh:

What hole did you crawl out of?  When you buy a pair of Salk's, I'll answer your questions.  :P

bigbwb

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Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #38 on: 17 May 2012, 04:23 pm »
What hole did you crawl out of?  When you buy a pair of Salk's, I'll answer your questions.  :P

 :D
Salks?  why would I do that when Im the one with the coveted round RAAL's :green:

TJHUB

Re: HT3's G2 tweeter vs Raal
« Reply #39 on: 17 May 2012, 04:40 pm »
:D
Salks?  why would I do that when Im the one with the coveted round RAAL's :green:

Maybe you won't be the only one of our group with round RAAL's.  :wink: