[JohnR]

Notice where Mr. Linkwitz has the speakers in his room?  Kinda far from reflective surfaces and he sits pretty close.

His recommendation is here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#D

I do that although I would like to have the speakers further from the wall than they are, so I use a small amount of HF absorption behind the speaker. Linkwitz recommends diffusion on the front wall.

[Trismos]

Technically, no, if you want to hear the music as it is mastered you'd have to use a similar setup. But, is that the goal? .....

You are quite right Bob. I don't care to know one way or the other about how a recording is mastered. I presume certain things but what I want to hear is .... nothing other than the music. Some music like Roger Waters' 'Amused to Death' is like 'being painted' as opposed to seeing a painting. Other music like Vienna Tengs 'Gravity' is like being given a fine Château Latou where you get to swish the tension of her passion upon your pallet.   

All speakers are a compromise. They are a woefully inadequate representation of the real thing. But as has been posted in the thread in regards to "whether the music is more important than really good sound" (or something like that) what speaker type or system you come to stand behind - or sit in front of - is subjective at the very best.

[JohnR]

But really. Your sound system is meant to reproduce both Stairway To Heaven and Stratus as the producer / recording engineer imagined it should sound. If I had an artist playing for me in my listening room, I imagine that it would be well reproduced by an OB speaker. But I don't and I don't think the recording engineer thought of this. They mastered their recordings (more likely than not) on a set of box speakers.

You are on a false scent here. Is your listening room also the same size as the mastering studio, with the same treatments etc? Do you use the same speakers and amps as the engineer used?

[*Scotty*]

I don't think an OB presentation will be any more of a fake than any other dipole presentation of the recording. My experience with dipoles is limited to various models of Magneplanar speakers and in the end I wanted more precise imaging and the ambiance in the recording delivered as first arrival sound and less ambiance from room reflection added to every recording regardless of where it was recorded or how the recording was processed.
Personal preference.
Scotty

[Tyson]

Box speakers and solid state amps mimic the master tapes best.  Tubes and OB mimic actual live music best.  IMO, of course

[Trismos]

You are on a false scent here. Is your listening room also the same size as the mastering studio, with the same treatments etc? Do you use the same speakers and amps as the engineer used?

Well that's only half way there isn't it? I don't care at all about the actual mastering studio. presumably they are trying to reproduce the actual venue where the sound was recorded. And if it was recorded in the mastering studio, the whole notion of it sounding like it was anything other than what the recording engineers wanted it to sound like is irrelevant. It is what it is. Whether or not an OB speaker is better than any other kind of speaker is subject to a multitude of subjective listening sessions.

[Russell Dawkins]

If I had an artist playing for me in my listening room, I imagine that it would be well reproduced by an OB speaker. But I don't and I don't think the recording engineer thought of this. They mastered their recordings (more likely than not) on a set of box speakers.

  I think you might be surprised and even humbled if you knew what the recording/mixing/mastering engineer took into consideration as they made their decisions. You and some others speak as though the recording engineers (all of them in a blanket dismissal) blithely sail through the process with not a care in the world, completely oblivious to the ramifications of their moves. In short that they are the enemy or at least an ignorant, mindless  pawn in the process.   All of the engineers I know care a great deal about what they are doing and go to great lengths to do the music the greatest possible justice - after all they are the intermediaries between the musician and the consumer and the music is in the balance.  Speaking for myself, I think music is the most precious of man's inventions and I treat it accordingly. And I can assure you I have agonized over many details such as you bring up.

[Russell Dawkins]

And this is the essence of this post. OB speakers would appear to be the BOSE alternative.

Why do I get the feeling you started this thread just to be able to say this.

[Trismos]

  I think you might be surprised and even humbled if you knew what the recording/mixing/mastering engineer took into consideration as they made their decisions. You and some others speak as though the recording engineers (all of them in a blanket dismissal) blithely sail through the process with not a care in the world, completely oblivious to the ramifications of their moves. In short that they are the enemy or at least an ignorant, mindless  pawn in the process.   All of the engineers I know care a great deal about what they are doing and go to great lengths to do the music the greatest possible justice - after all they are the intermediaries between the musician and the consumer and the music is in the balance.  Speaking for myself, I think music is the most precious of man's inventions and I treat it accordingly. And I can assure you I have agonized over many details such as you bring up.

I sense a little passion there Russell. I am a musician first, an "audiophile" a distant second. The ability of the human mind to compose a piece of music is like nature when she decides to bloom a rose. And every once in a while you get a Glenn Gould. Or an Ella Fitzgerald.

I am not only 'not surprised'. I am embarrassed by what passes as music now a days. I'm guessing you are also.

[Trismos]

Why do I get the feeling you started this thread just to be able to say this.

No.  I did not.
I am actually looking to move up to my next DIY speaker. I had built Danny Richies N3s and now I was thinking of trying the OB7s. I have looked at many a dream speaker including the Linkwitz Orion and the Super V but one step at a time. This whole OB vs anything else philosophy had me wondering.

[Trismos]

His recommendation is here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#D

I do that although I would like to have the speakers further from the wall than they are, so I use a small amount of HF absorption behind the speaker. Linkwitz recommends diffusion on the front wall.

Front wall? Do you mean in front of the listening position? Behind the speakers? Why there as opposed to behind the listening position?

[Tyson]

The problem is radiation patterns and power response.  Live music has omnidirectional radiation patterns and even power response.  But box speakers have neither of these characteristics.  OB speakers are closer to ideal in these two areas, although even OBs are still not perfect.  Much better, but not perfect.  Because nothing is perfect.

[JohnR]

Front wall? Do you mean in front of the listening position? Behind the speakers? Why there as opposed to behind the listening position?

Yes, behind the speakers. My understanding is that this would act to "scatter" the radiation from the back of the speaker and contribute to a more even reverberation in the room.

Sooner or later I'll get around to building some diffusors and trying it.

[*Scotty*]

Tyson, a live performance from an acoustical instrument usually does not have an out phase wave radiating from the rear of the instrument.
 In this respect a dipole has a very different radiation from a live acoustical instrument.
 A closer approach, radiation pattern wise, is found in the radiation patterns of Ohm and MBL loudspeakers which are mostly phase coherent omnidirectional speakers.
Scotty

[Æ]

Tyson, a live performance from an acoustical instrument usually does not have an out phase wave radiating from the rear of the instrument.
 In this respect a dipole has a very different radiation from a live acoustical instrument.
 A closer approach, radiation pattern wise, is found in the radiation patterns of Ohm and MBL loudspeakers which are mostly phase coherent omnidirectional speakers.
Scotty

Absolutely.
Another very good omni, rather rare, is the Wolcott Omnisphere.

[PDR]

Yes, behind the speakers. My understanding is that this would act to "scatter" the radiation from the back of the speaker and contribute to a more even reverberation in the room.

Sooner or later I'll get around to building some diffusors and trying it.

Have had diffusion behind my OBs for a number of months now.......thats where it will stay....

[rascal]

Following up on JohnR's link

Here is Linkwitz presentation http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES-NY%2709/NY-stereo%20challenge.pdf

So- go with what 'illusion' suits you 

[doug s.]

...And yes, it's all fake. We're reproducing a signal that has been altered. The studio setup might have mastered the music, but that doesn't mean it has to sound better than a home system could....

agreed - it is all fake.  i was gonna state this myself, but aj's earliers comment stating the same, and yours, beat me to it.  in spite of trismos' follow-on that it is irrelevant to this post, i strongly disagree, and i think it is in fact, one of, if not the most relevant issues regarding the attempt to get the illusion of live music into your living space.  right after trismos says it is irrelevant, he then states: "Stereo is an attempt to recreate a soundstage and is available to whatever speaker system is provided to reproduce it...."  precisely - it tries to make a fake construct in your living room!

Personally, I have mixed feelings on OB. I feel that OB is sort of a compromise in that you don't need to have a room treated as well and you'll get a nice big soundstage but you won't get the precise imaging or maybe all of the detail. OB bass is quite nice, but having multiples spread around the room (quality not necessarily all that important) can get you similar/better results, it's just more complicated.

i also have mixed feelings on ob.  ok, i take that back, i do not like ob at all.     but, the reason is because, of the fact that you need so much more room treatment to get a proper illusion of a real soundstage, not less room treatment.  otherwise, yes - you get this big soundstage, but it is far from nice, imo, when everything is way over done.  which it is in almost every ob set up i have ever heard.  i am sure the way danny ritchie sets up for shows w/his super-v's, he gets great results.  no way i will ever do that kinda sound treatment in a listening room anywhere i live.  it is much easier, imo, to treat a room for conwentional forward-firing speakers.  and, w/wave-guide speakers, and coax's like aj's sam-1's that throw a relatively uniform soundfield at all frequencies, room treatment is needed even less...

I don't think an OB presentation will be any more of a fake than any other dipole presentation of the recording. My experience with dipoles is limited to various models of Magneplanar speakers and in the end I wanted more precise imaging and the ambiance in the recording delivered as first arrival sound and less ambiance from room reflection added to every recording regardless of where it was recorded or how the recording was processed.
Personal preference.
Scotty

i agree w/scotty here completely.  ob  is dipole.  and, as i said, i do not like the artificial sounding (to me) presentation of ambiance as it is delivered - to every recording - from dipole speakers.  i would much prefer enjoying whatever ambiance is there in the recording.  when it is well done, speakers and walls can disappear w/o the overblown diffuse sounding soundstage that i perceive from bipole speakers. 

Tyson, a live performance from an acoustical instrument usually does not have an out phase wave radiating from the rear of the instrument.
 In this respect a dipole has a very different radiation from a live acoustical instrument.
 A closer approach, radiation pattern wise, is found in the radiation patterns of Ohm and MBL loudspeakers which are mostly phase coherent omnidirectional speakers.
Scotty

again, i agree.  i much prefer the sound of a walsh-style driver, which seems to me to throw a more natural soundstage than any dipole.  even tho expansive, it is not diffuse; everything is still quite well delineated in space...

as always - ymmv,

doug s.

[JohnR]

the fact that you need so much more room treatment to get a proper illusion of a real soundstage, not less room treatment.

I'm not sure how that can be "fact" given that e.g. Linkwitz says he prefers no room treatments, and the technical matter - I should say fact - concerning higher direct-to-room sound with dipoles.

 

[D OB G]

This is all interesting stuff.
I’ve asked on DiyAudio, and I’ve noticed others also asking the question, which never seems to be answered- what is going on, what are the differences between speakers in the way they present “you are there” and “they are here”.
I understand “you are there” to be the presentation of being in a concert hall listening to a symphony orchestra.
I understand “they are here” to be the classic ‘girl and guitar’, or the rock band, playing right here in my room.
Obviously ideal speakers would be able to do both.
Over many years of listening to commercial speakers, I’ve found that they tend to do one better than the other.
Symphonic music sounds terrible with “they are here” speakers.
Intimate music doesn’t sound good on “you are there” speakers.
I find it interesting that Geddes never listens to classical music on his speakers (although he goes to concerts), and his theory on presentation (directivity), if I’m not mistaken, fits the “they are here” paradigm. I understand that he doesn’t believe it is possible to produce an acceptable account of orchestral music in a “small room”.
As I understand it, Linkwitz  primarily listens to classical music.
Toole, with his wider directivity than Geddes, primarily listens to classical music (as Geddes points out)!
I’m sure us OpenBafflers fit into both paradigms, however for me, I see OBs as doing “you are there” best, although maybe with the speakers a good distance from the walls, and sitting closely, it’s the other way round (I’m currently OB only to about 500Hz).
I don’t know.
If I muse as to whether the type of music enjoyed determines the efficacy of OB, I might be wrong or I might be wrong.

Regards,
David