Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed

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kevinh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 102
Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #20 on: 9 May 2012, 03:40 am »
Found an interesting link on one of the audio forums:
 
http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf
 
This helps explain why power ratings and test results can be deceiving.  This test should be run on all amps reviewed, but one does not see it very often.  It does help explain why a 30 watt or 60 watt Class A amp can provide cleaner power than say a 100 to 200 watt amp where the power supply reserve is simply not there.




The Class of the amp doesn't necessarily tell you much about the design of the powersupply and the ability to drive a low impedance load.

The simplist example would be a CLass A SE 300B amp it would drive a lot of pwoer but of course that is not the point the idea is to delive a signal without crossove distortion and with mostly 2nd harmonic distortion which the ear doesn't find objectionable.

The Curl Halo amp isn't a class a amp how it is biased fairly high but it will drive a lot of current into a low impedance load 3x it power into a 2ohm load as it drives into a 8 ohm load.

DS-21

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 334
Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #21 on: 9 May 2012, 04:59 pm »
Here is a quote from Stereophile on the XA 30.5 test results:

" Pass Labs' XA30.5 is a Jekyll-and-Hyde amplifier. Ostensibly a 30Wpc class-A design, its measured performance reveals that it can actually deliver clipping-free peaks 6dB higher in power, while the fact that its distortion under those conditions is predominantly the subjectively innocuous third harmonic is commendable"

First, interesting that you'll quote Stereophile, who haven't actually used the measurement machine you tout. But you seem deathly afraid of studying actual Powercubes, as published by Peter Azcel in TAC. Why?

Remember, you started this thread to tout the Powercube. What makes you so afraid of learning what kinds of Powercube results actual existing amps have generated? Strikes me that there's a classic conflict between evidence-based science and simpleminded religious zealotry here.

But to the Stereophile data, all it really says is that Nelson Pass misrated the amp. It's actually a 130W/8Ω amp, not a 30W amp. And, incidentally, one that strays pretty far from the theoretical idea of doubling output as impedance is halved. Perhaps Papa Nelson's power-supply isn't as well-conceived as it looks to the eye of the untrained audiophool.

Given the source, one should probably assume the misrating was intentional so as to mislead consumers, not because of incompetence or inability to measure the correct output.

But nothing in that review negates my point that an amp with more power will play louder cleaner longer. Papa deciding to spec his amp with an incorrect number does not change anything.

Given the Stereophile measurements, it seems clear that an earlier Nelson Pass design, the Adcom GFA-5800, is simply a superior amp. It has a lot more power into all impedances, with equally negligible distortion. I'm not using my 5800 right now. It's in great shape. Want to buy it? I'll sell it for only 150% the MSRP of the XA30.5! :)

There are 100 watt amps out that don't perform as well.

I'll agree. The reason for that is that the manufacturer/marketer rated them honestly, rather than using the old 1990s car audio imbecile marketing gimmick of "underrating" that Papa is employing. ("Duudee, this 30W Rockford Fosgate Punch amp just flat POUNDS!" "Lanzar watts are a whole lot more powerful than PPI watts or a/d/s/ watts!!!!")

Yes, a 130W amp will play marginally louder than the typical 100W amp.

The above are "facts", so stop whining.

Not as the word "fact" is reasonably used by intelligent English speakers. They are, as I correctly pointed out, unsupported and conclusory assertions of your own opinion. 

They work different, so guess what, they can and will sound different as result.  You don’t need a spectrum analyzer to tell that, either.

That is again not a fact, but an unsupported cursory assertion of your opinion.

Words mean things. You would do well to stick to the actual accepted meanings of the words you use.

Furthermore, it is simply incorrect reasoning to go from the premise that things "work different" to the conclusion that therefore they must "act different."

Lastly, things often "work different" but "function exactly the same in every material way" in the real world.

Freo-1

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #22 on: 9 May 2012, 08:46 pm »

Remember, you started this thread to tout the Powercube. What makes you so afraid of learning what kinds of Powercube results actual existing amps have generated? Strikes me that there's a classic conflict between evidence-based science and simpleminded religious zealotry here.

But nothing in that review negates my point that an amp with more power will play louder cleaner longer. Papa deciding to spec his amp with an incorrect number does not change anything.

Given the Stereophile measurements, it seems clear that an earlier Nelson Pass design, the Adcom GFA-5800, is simply a superior amp. It has a lot more power into all impedances, with equally negligible distortion.


 
Based on what, exactly?  People across the audio world (with REAL creditability) has stated that the XA 30. 5 is one of the finest solid state amps ever made.   
« Last Edit: 9 May 2012, 10:52 pm by Freo-1 »

Freo-1

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #23 on: 9 May 2012, 09:31 pm »
Here are a couple of links regarding testing power amps:
 
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa116/sloa116.pdf
 
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa068/sloa068.pdf
 
http://www.eetasia.com/STATIC/PDF/200909/EEOL_2009SEP04_ACC_TA_01.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD
 

The link about testing Class D amps is interesting.

opnly bafld

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #24 on: 9 May 2012, 09:38 pm »
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« Last Edit: 9 May 2012, 10:49 pm by opnly bafld »

sts9fan

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #25 on: 9 May 2012, 10:23 pm »
I am now watching this thread. Any post with a personal attack will be canned. A few more and I will dump the whole thing.

Freo-1

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #26 on: 9 May 2012, 10:25 pm »
I am now watching this thread. Any post with a personal attack will be canned. A few more and I will dump the whole thing.

Agreed.  I'm all for sticking to the topic at hand.. :D

Freo-1

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #27 on: 9 May 2012, 10:43 pm »
Here is a interesting explaination on power supply perfromance with Class D amps: 
 
"  Another marked cause of degradation in Class D amplifiers is bus pumping, which can be seen when the half bridge topology is powering a low frequency output to the load. Always keep in mind that the gain of a Class D amplifier stage is directly proportional to the bus voltage. Therefore, bus fluctuation creates distortion. Since the energy flowing in the Class D switching stage is bi-directional, there is a period where the Class D amplifier feeds energy back to the power supply. The majority of the energy flowing back to the supply is from the energy stored in the inductor in the output LPF. Usually, the power supply has no way to absorb the energy coming back from the load. Consequently the bus voltage is pumped up, creating bus voltage fluctuations. Bus pumping does not occur in full bridge topologies because the energy kicked back to the power supply from one side of the switching leg will be consumed in the other side of the switching leg."
 
Wonder how this would be seen in testing? 
 
Also found this paper on power supplies from the EE Times:
 
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4204775/Audio-amplifier-power-supply-design---Part-1--Power-supply-types---transformer-considerations

Freo-1

Re: Why wattage from your amp may not be as claimed
« Reply #28 on: 9 May 2012, 11:19 pm »