[doug s.]

A) The Mola Mola isn't out yet so there isn't yet the definitive NC1200 amp, as gorgeous sexy as the Atsah's are.

B) until someone can compare a Mola Mola and bridged pair of NC400's, it's all speculation. People seem to forget the formidable bridged 400 in the newness of the new 12's. Now the reports of the NC400's sound quality are well documented. The reports on the NC1200 are nebulous and laced with suspicion,by comparison. Terse, questionable, highly incomplete. Better, or voiced, indeed. There is yet no definitive answer.

of course it is mere speculation whether or not the "definitive nc1200 amp" is out there yet.  that's because not all nc1200's are out there, not because the mola-mola is not out there yet!   

and the reports on the nc1200 are FAR from "nebulous and laced with suspicion..."  in fact, it seems clear, at least from those who have tried, that they are considerably better than the nc400's.  what is nebulous & laced w/suspicion is the opinion that the molo-mola is the "definitive" nc1200 amp, when it's not even out yet!   

and what's terse and questionable is your statement that the reports on the nc1200 are terse & questionable.  rclark, while i love a bargain as much as anyone, it seems to me that you are plainly averse to the idea that one might feel there is plainly something better, albeit for more money, than your $2k "game changer"...

doug s.

[Rclark]

What I meant by suspicion Doug, is that people didn't think the reports were genuine because nobody was up front about a beta program. That made people suspicious, especially considering that all along up until now, we've been told there isn't much difference beyond more power, even by Bruno himself. By terse, instead of pages and pages and pages of highly technical breakdown of why the NC400 is like this, you get a few sentences, and a "it's a lot better." Terse means short. By incomplete, just that, incomplete.

That's all. Not averse to anything, if it's true, I'll just aspire to a set. Where's the beef, that's all. And Doug, the 400 is highly reviewed, spectacular amp, up there with the up-there's. So the 1200 being a "lot better" is really saying something. Hopefully, not saying more power, but voiced, straying from the NC400 theme of hey the amp's not there sonically, build your system around that.

Mola Mola being the big one, that's just my opinion. A good bet, I'd say. A set of those against a set of bridged 400's would make for a "definitive" case.

[doug s.]

rclark, i have read all the same reviews/reports/posts/etc that you have...   while i have my opinions, you are certainly entitled to yours... 

doug s.

[James Romeyn]

There is yet no definitive answer.

Can two audiophiles agree on Ohm's Law, much less amplifier subjective sound quality?   

Just playin...

[dan92075]

Copy/paste of my opinion when asked on diyAudio:
I do not know why the Veritas amps sound so good, my NC400 amps were put together very basically and still sounded the best I had heard.

So, the sound... All the buzzwords, I guess. Deathly quiet, palpable room loading, unbelievable low end control, amazing detail extraction without stridency, terrific separation of musical lines while still naturally blended, etc.

Thanks for the review Regnad!

One more question:
The NC400 is already super quiet,  already has outstanding low end control,  etc
So are you saying for each of those qualities listed above,  the NC1200 really outperforms the NC400?

This is a pretty amazing amp if this is the case - I think I am going to have to hear one myself!

[munosmario]

Can two audiophiles agree on Ohm's Law, much less amplifier subjective sound quality?   

Just playin...

Very true, James....however issue here is that the disagreement is not over different SQ opinions,  resulting from an actual audition of the equipment in question, but over SQ opinions writen/reported in the web by third parties. With a caveat, as we all have learned by now, Rclark usually makes the strongest pronouncements in favor of equipment (to illuminate us, I supposse) based not on valid equipment comparisons that result from his relevant or significant audition or ownership experience. His stands are based, for the most, on a fanatic belief in whatever he manages to understand or interpret out of whatever he reads in the web about equipment that strikes his fancy in line with his budget. But now, it seems, because it is out of his budgetary capabilities, he appears to be  fanatically refusing to accept the credibility of any thing that presents the NC1200s as superior to his NC400s

Of course, as the saying goes, he is entitled to his opinions...and, who knows, he may be right and the whole thing is nothing but an overt  marketing ploy from Bruno and financial partner to get higher margins and recover the reportedly significant development cost of the NC modules (that is what I am starting to get from carefully reading the uber-extensive sixmoons review of the Atsah). It is intriguing why no major name company has really taking to produce NC1200 based amps (if I understand correctly, just a couple of basically new internet-based, direct-sale companies). I would venture that perhaps they realized that the embeded high  Hypex margin squezzes significantly their own usual margin--unless they price themselves even higher, forcing the need for a true SQ-based product differenciation strategy. 

Mario

[bhakti]

You might consider a deeper study of the industry.

While I occasionally share your disgust with all the above, I would give Bruno my highest rating.  While no one who sells equipment can be divested of sales results, either consciously or subconsciously, Bruno is good imho!!

[munosmario]

You might consider a deeper study of the industry.

While I occasionally share your disgust with all the above, I would give Bruno my highest rating.  While no one who sells equipment can be divested of sales results, either consciously or subconsciously, Bruno is good imho!!

I stand corrected, my use of the word " marketing ploy" gives a negative connotation to what I am saying. I should have used "marketing strategy"....although please notice that I said "overt marketing ploy", as "in the open," not "concealed." I did not mean or imply any disrespect or contempt for Brunos's persona or business ethics...on the contrary, as an investment banker by profession, I totally admire both his technical  and his business acumen, and kudos to him if his two tier price structure works as intended. However, I, myself, would be very dissapointed if the NC1200 happens to be nothing else but a more powerful NC400.

The following is an extract from the Atsah sixmoons review (a comment from a prospective OEM on decision of not going with the NC1200):

The only limit from a [NC1200's] popularity perspective is price. I believe Hypex spent a lot of money developing the Ncore module. I fully appreciate their pricing structure. But so far it is very expensive, far beyond what we can achieve with traditional class AB technology. I think that $10,000 is just a starter price for Ncore amps.

And this other one on the implicit relative lower profitability (lower volumes, low margin) of the NC400 DIY business segment:

"There's the NC400 module dedicated exclusively to DIY. That means not for profit, resale or large-scale production. There's also the more powerful NC1200 module (400w/8Ω, 700w/4Ω and 1200w/2Ω) which is available to select OEMs in buffered (94kΩ input) and non-buffer (5.3kΩ) versions but not to DIY"

These quotes are part of the basis for some of the comments in my previous post.

munosmario

[Rclark]

Nobody is suggesting a marketing ploy. The amps are what they are and all will be revealed in time. What I meant was, the perception of these initial reviews, and not necessarily by me, was that they were suspect merely because there was apparently a beta program available. Let's everybody calm down some, please. My own skepticism, otherwise, is valid until proven otherwise by a credible comparison.

 And please reread what I said. I am very interested in the 1200's, I even said I think the Mola Mola's will be the best. I'm sure they will sell boatloads of them. If I had 13K on standby, for amps, that's exactly where my money would go.

 

[munosmario]

Nobody is suggesting a marketing ploy. The amps are what they are and all will be revealed in time. What I meant was, the perception of these initial reviews, and not necessarily by me, was that they were suspect merely because there was apparently a beta program available. Let's everybody calm down some, please. My own skepticism, otherwise, is valid until proven otherwise by a credible comparison.

 And please reread what I said. I am very interested in the 1200's, I even said I think the Mola Mola's will be the best. I'm sure they will sell boatloads of them. If I had 13K on standby, for amps, that's exactly where my money would go.

Here you go again with your pronouncements. You are "very interested in the 1200s"  (something that you cannot afford) but remain totally skeptical that the 1200's are any better "until proven otherwise by a credible comparison."  Credible to whom? To you as the ultimate judge in reading third party reports? As dougS said, we all have access to those reports and most of us definitely have more experience, knowledge, and means in this hobby to evaluate those reports and reach our own conclusions without need for your confused prononcements.

Now, to the facts. When there is a two tier price structure with a 5X difference, for two very similar products  targeted to two different market segments (without any reported [by the designer] clear difference, except for more power), there is, without doubt, a marketing strategy (or "overt matketing ploy" as I politically incorrectly refered to, initially). As suggested by "credible" industry participants , such strategy is to recover development costs (and get a proper economic return on the technology). Perfectly wise and legal proposition in a capitalistic system...whether fair or not, that depends on one's socialistic inclinations. From my perspective, I hope Bruno and his financial partner have success with this strategy, as well as that the 1200's claim to fame results in more than just power!

munosmario

[JohnR]

Rclark, you're a young fella, put the 13k into your house deposit fund.

[Regnad]

So are you saying for each of those qualities listed above,  the NC1200 really outperforms the NC400?

Hi Dan, first please remember this is my ears, system, room etc...

Except for noise (nothing=nothing), it is startlingly better in all those areas.   I should point out that the MBL speakers are unusual in that there are 4 gravity-challenged voice coils pushing big metal and carbon fiber material so an 81dB efficiency is not surprising.   They also tend to sound better at higher volume which is probably why they are usually played loud at shows.

Perhaps it is the "overhead" power available that is largely responsible even at moderate volume levels.   Maybe the very impressive case construction, wire and connectors, etc. of the Veritas amps are the reason.   

Few more observations:

The amps have stock 5 amp fuses in their power supplies right now.   Next week I will install SR20 fuses and I am looking forward to see if I will hear any difference.

I no longer need to have the JL Audio subs for 2-channel, I had no idea that the MBLs had a low end like that.

A friend was over yesterday and wanted to see "what this system can do" so we played the Massive Attack theme from Blade II and, at barely tolerable levels, we were literally slack-jawed.   I have never seen the large metal lamellas move on the MBLs before.   The air from the ports was ridiculous.   All the while, no distortion, clear vocals and no compression.   

So, fun!   Obviously I am sold and would argue that anyone looking for an amp should audition NCore.   I think that both the DIY and OEM are great.   Finally, anyone that has not heard Bruno's talk about class D should listen to it.  It is very interesting and informative.

[doug s.]

regnad, you're a fool - you should have waited for the mola-mola's to come out, and then buy them.  rclarck said he thinks the mola-mola's will be best, so it must be true.  what were you thinking?!?   

doug s.

[doug s.]

rclark, you said:

"My own skepticism, otherwise, is valid until proven otherwise by a credible comparison."

for you, yes.  others believe there are already credible comparisons out there.

doug s.

[barrows]

Actually, I think a bit of skepticism concerning sound quality differences (unrelated to the power difference that is) between the nC400 and nC1200 is warranted.  Many have suggested that the excellent perfromance of the nCore amplifiers is related to their superior measurements.  Well, the nC400 measures better than the nC1200, this is one reason for skepticism.  Additionally, Mr. Putzeys himself is on record as suggesting that there is no significant difference in sound quality between the two.
I am reminded of my days at PS Audio, when we made amplifiers using the ICEpower ASP modules (with a proprietary input stage).  All the amps had the same input stage design, and the only difference was which ASP module was used.  I compared amps with the 500ASP (250/500 Wper channel into 8/4 ohms), vs. the 1000ASP (500/800ish Wper channel into 8/4 ohms) and found the 500ASP based amps to sound better.  The 500ASP based amps also measured better, with higher bandwidth and less distortion.
If a bog stock nC1200 does sound better than a bog stock nC400, I would like to know why?  Especially considering that the measurements for the nC400 are better...
Are these differences people are hearing just a result of the power difference?  Well, we should then consider the speakers in play...  Or, are there other differences in the design of the amps which Mr. Putzeys has not revealed?  For example, it is my experience that the voltage gain stage has a large influence over the sound of most power amplifiers.  The nC400 uses a discrete opamp style circuit, which Mr. Putzeys claims outperforms any IC which he tested.  What is the design implementation of the nC1200 input stage?  Apparently it is on the underside of the board, as any published pictures I have seen do not show it.
So far, I have not seen any nC1200 based amps where the manufacturer has incorporated their own voltage gain stage.  When/if this does happen, I am sure it will result in new "flavors' of nCore sound.

[cab]

Actually, I think a bit of skepticism concerning sound quality differences (unrelated to the power difference that is) between the nC400 and nC1200 is warranted.  Many have suggested that the excellent perfromance of the nCore amplifiers is related to their superior measurements.  Well, the nC400 measures better than the nC1200, this is one reason for skepticism.  Additionally, Mr. Putzeys himself is on record as suggesting that there is no significant difference in sound quality between the two.

I have heard the same thing from Hypex- they have not noticed any meaningful difference in the sound between the nc1200 and the nc400. They have been extremely open with their info and I can find no reason to not take them at their word.

It would indeed be interesting to hear more non-biased feedback on the two amps compared head to head.

[jhm731]

Does anyone know why the Atsah uses the Hypex soft-start module?   I remember reading that the SMPS700 already had that "built-in".

Do your new VERITAS amps have the soft-start module?

How about a picture of the VERITAS's insides?

[Regnad]

Do your new VERITAS amps have the soft-start module?

How about a picture of the VERITAS's insides?

No and sorry, no.

[barrows]

I do not think there is any mystery as to what is inside the Veritas' cases.  They describe the build in detail at their website, talking about the chassis, the wiring, and the Synergistic fuse.  From their description it is quite clear that there is a stock SMPS and nC1200 module internally.  Perhaps there is a nice layout, and perhaps separate compartments in the CNCed block for the power supply and amp module, but beyond that, what is there... nothing much, just a quality implementation of an nC1200 build.

[jhm731]

I do not think there is any mystery as to what is inside the Veritas' cases.  They describe the build in detail at their website, talking about the chassis, the wiring, and the Synergistic fuse.  From their description it is quite clear that there is a stock SMPS and nC1200 module internally.  Perhaps there is a nice layout, and perhaps separate compartments in the CNCed block for the power supply and amp module, but beyond that, what is there... nothing much, just a quality implementation of an nC1200 build.

I guess your right, just another nice case with stock modules like the Atsah.