New waveguide vs. old horn?

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JDUBS

New waveguide vs. old horn?
« on: 21 Apr 2012, 08:10 pm »
Guys, I'd love to try a vintage setup like this:

http://members.myactv.net/~je2a3/speakers2.htm

but the advances in waveguide technology has me rethinking the approach:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?board=2.0

Not the same in terms of the "coolness" factor that you get from a vintage setup but this might be offset by (much?) better sound...not really sure.  Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim 

Æ

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Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #1 on: 21 Apr 2012, 09:02 pm »
Well, the new stuff will definitely sound better. While you are at it, look up Econowave, EconoWave, Econo-Wave by Zilch.

N.B. Zilch is no longer with us, but his legacy lives on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw7pTwpx0K0

JDUBS

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #2 on: 21 Apr 2012, 09:07 pm »
Thanks on the Econowave tip...definitely been following that development.  It seems like the SEOS takes it (waveguide tech) one step further.

Looks to me like its a potential Gedlee Abbey killer.

-Jim

rajacat

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Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #3 on: 21 Apr 2012, 09:55 pm »
I'm going the waveguide direction using the SEOS 18.


mgalusha

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #4 on: 22 Apr 2012, 01:08 am »
I have a pair of the SEOS 15's on the way. Assuming I ever get time I'm planning on building a pair of speakers with them and some JBL 15" drivers.

Gothover

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Apr 2012, 02:18 pm »
The old Altec horns are certainly no slouch when done right.

My long time preference for 2 channel is Controlled directivity Tractrix designs.

For HT and large venue, Constant directivity would be a better choice.

Dave

sebrof

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #6 on: 24 Apr 2012, 02:01 am »
Some really good info linked below. Keep in mind Wayne sells those types of speakers.

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

JDUBS

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #7 on: 25 Apr 2012, 08:33 pm »
Guys, I appreciate the feedback.  I'm thinking I'll give the four Pi a shot.  I love the 2226 jbl driver and that combined with the B&C DE250 driver (with a wave guide) coupled with a proven crossover design seems most intriguing.

Any thoughts on this specific design? 

-Jim


amandarae

My Kind of Speakers!!!
« Reply #8 on: 25 Apr 2012, 09:16 pm »
Here are some pics of what I tried. 




Altec 802D/Altec 604-8G on Altec 612c cabs/Altec 811 horns/1st order 825 Hz



Altec 802D/Altec 416-8B on Altec 612c cabs/Altec 511 horns/2nd order 525 hz



Altec 802D/Altec 416-8B on Altec 612c cabs/Azura 425 horns/Fostex T90A/1st order 800 and 1200 hz



Altec 288C/Altec 414A on Altec 612c cabs/Azura 425 horns/ Fostex T90A/800hz 1st order



Altec 288C/Altec 416-8B on Altec 612c cabs/JMLC 350/ 2nd order LR 800 /Fostex T90A 1st order

The last pic is what I am using now.  I also tried the Altec 811 with the 416-8B LF, but I cannot find the pic of it.

Oh, BTW, Joseph(Esmilla) is a friend of mine.  I heard that set up(your link) personally and it is a killer!  The horn he's using (as per pic) is the rare cast type(one piece) and drivers are 802D(16 ohms) with 3000H tweeters and the LF drivers are 414Z's.

As for the Pi speakers, my brother has the 4Pi,  IMO has a different sound than the Altecs.


Abe




sebrof

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #9 on: 29 Apr 2012, 01:38 am »
Guys, I appreciate the feedback.  I'm thinking I'll give the four Pi a shot.  I love the 2226 jbl driver and that combined with the B&C DE250 driver (with a wave guide) coupled with a proven crossover design seems most intriguing.

Any thoughts on this specific design? 

-Jim

I just finished building these a few days ago (I did not build the cabs but painted them). Eminence Delta 12LFA and Eminence PSD2002 CD, so similar to what you plan. I think they sound great, but I don't know what other speakers you've had or what you're looking for.


JoshK

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #10 on: 29 Apr 2012, 07:13 pm »
Abe,

Those look awesome!  I know you've had a bunch of stuff. I seem to recall you even had a pair of Pi4s, am I mistaken?  How do you compare the two?  Did you take any measurements?  I am curious about how low those Altecs go in that cab, I am guessing around mid 50's.  Do you use a sub?   How sensitive are they?

Sebrof,
Those look great too!  I fell in love with the large cabinet, big woofer sound some years back and couldn't go back to a small woofer design ever again. 

I am using a pair of Tannoy 15" dual concentrics now.  They aren't the last word in resolution, although they aren't bad in that either, but they have a way of making you turn your analytical sense off and just listen.  They have deep tight effortless bass and they image like crazy.  Deep soundstage.

These are what I am using right now...it was a temporary pair of speaks till I finished my big horn projects.  Bought them locally for $1400, but they set the bar pretty high.
http://www10.plala.or.jp/minmin_house/brochure-arundel.PDF

JoshK

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #11 on: 29 Apr 2012, 07:45 pm »
For Jim,

What was it about the Unity horns that you didn't like?  I know you sold them recently, and they are one of the highest examples of the controlled directivity modern waveguide designs.  What about them didnt you like or wish to improve?

Josh

P.S. did you ever try them with the original crossovers and original drivers?  I always wondered why you chose to go the digital route on such a complex design.  There are some pretty big subtle gotchas with those designs that are *nothing* like normal speaker designs.  Danley purposely looks at phase to push the phase lobe outside of the forward response, stuff that the average DIYer will easily miss.

JoshK

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #12 on: 29 Apr 2012, 08:58 pm »
I'm going the waveguide direction using the SEOS 18.



What are you mating them with? 

Nick77

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #13 on: 29 Apr 2012, 09:03 pm »
Here is my recent Pi4 build, very pleased with results. Certainly learned some things in the process if you decide to proceed give me a pm.




JoshK

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #14 on: 29 Apr 2012, 09:07 pm »
Excellent!  Love the dark walnut!  Tell us how you like the sound.

Nick77

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #15 on: 29 Apr 2012, 09:36 pm »
Excellent!  Love the dark walnut!  Tell us how you like the sound.

Josh, thanks.... I like them quite a bit, took a little trial and error on caps but have the resolution now that i am used too. They have a real strong mid-bass sound i was looking for, i listen mostly without sub support. I have noticeable less room interaction and a very eveloping soundstage. I went with the JBL's and DE250's.

jtwrace

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #16 on: 29 Apr 2012, 09:46 pm »
Abe,

Those look awesome!  I know you've had a bunch of stuff. I seem to recall you even had a pair of Pi4s, am I mistaken?  How do you compare the two?  Did you take any measurements? 
I agree and would also love to hear the comparison. 

amandarae

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #17 on: 30 Apr 2012, 03:26 am »
Abe,

Those look awesome!  I know you've had a bunch of stuff. I seem to recall you even had a pair of Pi4s, am I mistaken?  How do you compare the two?  Did you take any measurements?  I am curious about how low those Altecs go in that cab, I am guessing around mid 50's.  Do you use a sub?   How sensitive are they?


Hello Josh,

Thanks for the kind words.  My brother has the 4Pi with blonde cabs.  I heard it many times and I maybe in the minority because I never "warm" up to it's sound.  To me, the cabs are too small ( for the 15" LF driver) and the sound is flat.  As I understand, there's a lot of compensation in the XO.  You have to have the cabs positioned higher to get a fuller sound and I think the horns are too small too as the sound definitely changes (on HF) from when you are sitting down and to that of when you are standing up, not to mention that the cabs when placed on the floor without the aid of any stand, is too low as the soundstage seems to be be "below the knees".  Believe me, if it sounded right to me, I should have bought one already.  I might be wrong of course, but I heard several set up similar to that of the Pi (LF cabs vented with horns either incorporated to the cabs or sitting on top).

No, I did not do any measurements on my set up.  I patterned my set up from my friend in the Philippines using the same cabs and components except for an Altec 1005 horns.  The 416-8B specs says 30 Hz to 1600 hz.  The cabs I have is tuned to 45 hz if i am not mistaken.  To me, for two channel music only, mostly vinyl, I think I get at least 45 hz plus maybe room interaction.  My limitation is the room I have. I tried aan Altec 620 cabs in it with XO about 500 hz and bass seems to dominate the sound.  Also, with the 620 cabs, I sometimes get rumble that's why I ended up with the 612c cabinets.  I am thinking of going "Onken" but that plan is on hold for the time being.

I do not use a sub when listening to the majority of software I have.  There were times I tried techno and my Velodyne 15' seems to work well crossed at 30 hz.

The 416-8B is 98 dB, the 288-C is 115 dB.   I attenuate the HF 14 db and no attenuation to the LF.  At present,  I use 2nd Order Linkwitz/Riley XO at around 800 thereabouts.  The "Super tweeter" has a 1st order coming in at around 15 kHz.  Sometimes, I switch to using the 604-8G  (utilizing LF only) on the cabs and this brings the sensitivity around 99 dB, HF arrangement remains the same.

regards,

Abe
« Last Edit: 30 Apr 2012, 06:47 am by amandarae »

amandarae

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #18 on: 30 Apr 2012, 03:30 am »
I agree and would also love to hear the comparison.

Hello Jason!  Hope I got your name right.   Please see my response to Josh above!  BTW, I've been following your "amp" tour and "listening impression" threads lately. 
regards,

Abe

Rclark

Re: New waveguide vs. old horn?
« Reply #19 on: 30 Apr 2012, 05:55 am »
Is it true that these cd type speakers have potentially the biggest payoff but are more sensitive to room?

(Abe, those are some beautiful speakers)