[OzarkTom]

Now that is a much more reasonable review. None of the game changer attitude, none of the get rid of all anps and buy only Ncore attitude.

It is very hard to A-B two very good sounding amps. About the only way I have found to properly compare, live with an amp for a week or two, install the other amp in the system for at least a week, then go back to the first amp. Which amp do you miss the most in your system? But the audiophile down the street may prefer the opposite amp on his system.

But it is very easy with a great VS. mediocre amp.

Thanks WGH and TomS for the reviews. I just hope the other Ncore fanatics here don't burn you at the stake.

[timind]

Now that is a much more reasonable review. None of the game changer attitude, none of the get rid of all anps and buy only Ncore attitude.

It is very hard to A-B two very good sounding amps. About the only way I have found to properly compare, live with an amp for a week or two, install the other amp in the system for at least a week, then go back to the first amp. Which amp do you miss the most in your system? But the audiophile down the street may prefer the opposite amp on his system.

But it is very easy with a great VS. mediocre amp.

Thanks WGH and TomS for the reviews. I just hope the other Ncore fanatics here don't burn you at the stake.

True dat!
I was going to just use the second paragraph of your post as that is exactly my feeling. But the rest is true also IMO.

[medium jim]

TomS:

As the others have said, nice "Factual" report that makes me more interested in them. 

Jim

[hifial]

Just an observation, which others may have thought. The Ncore 400 is Bruno's DIY module and is being compared to very respected OEM products costing many times the DIY Ncore cost and garnering very favorable reviews against those OEMs. I for one would like to see how well these very respected OEMs fair against Bruno's OEM Ncore 1200. I Think the Ncore 400 is just a peak at what is to come. Just my 2cents.   

[medium jim]

They may be great amps, but what I've learned over my life is that what appears to be to good usually is.  I would almost feel better if there were some less than glowing reviews as a point of validation. 

It is hard to phantom that this amp can satisfy all who have heard it. I really believe it takes more than a few days to get a real understanding of what it sounds like, first impressions are seldom that same as the last impressions.

At some point, a finished product will be reviewed by the professionals for TAS, Stereophile and the other usual suspects and maybe that will flesh out the facts from the myths. 

This is not to say those who own them or are part of the tour and have wrote a review have not been valuable, they have.
This post is not meant to be negative, rather my perspective.

[Freo-1]

Now that is a much more reasonable review. None of the game changer attitude, none of the get rid of all anps and buy only Ncore attitude.

It is very hard to A-B two very good sounding amps. About the only way I have found to properly compare, live with an amp for a week or two, install the other amp in the system for at least a week, then go back to the first amp. Which amp do you miss the most in your system? But the audiophile down the street may prefer the opposite amp on his system.

But it is very easy with a great VS. mediocre amp.

Thanks WGH and TomS for the reviews. I just hope the other Ncore fanatics here don't burn you at the stake.

+1

Thanks for posting a sensible response.

[Don_S]

Pete and TomS,

Thank you for taking the time to listen to the NCores and post balanced and thoughtful opinions.   

[doug s.]

They may be great amps, but what I've learned over my life is that what appears to be to good usually is.  I would almost feel better if there were some less than glowing reviews as a point of validation...

well, from all the comments about them, the ncores do appear to be good; probably they really are.    

as far as the "less than glowing" rewiews go, well if something really is that good, these less than glowing rewiews may be few and far between.  while i am not in the market for amps, and rarely if ever buy new, if i were, these ncores would be at the top of my list.

not sure why it would make you feel better if there were less than glowing rewiews, but you can look at brm's post above, as a "less than glowing rewiew"; do you feel better now?   
"...Really a nice amplifier but I won't be selling my Samsons as a result..."

and:
"...Very promising and to me about 90% of what I am used to and perhaps some more of some good things in certain areas that only an extended time could tell me..."

brm was the first person i have read about that felt the ncores were not at least as transparent as anything they were compared to: "...I felt there was a sheet over the mid to top end as compared to my Samsons..."  that is saying something.  of course, brm admits that a lot of time is needed to really be able to do a proper ewaluation.  but, what i take from this, especially when taken in context w/what others have said, is that the ncores, at 30%-40% the cost of the samsons, play on the same level, at the wery least.

if i already owned the samsons, and bought them new, and went so far as to have $8k speakers made in a custom finish, color matched to the amps, i, too, would be reluctant to be wanting to take a financial hit and sell my samsons, to replace them w/relatively cheap-in-comparison little boxes.  the ncores would truly have to be a major step above what i already had, for me to want to do that - if it were a matter of it possibly being a hair better, i wouldn't even want to know if they were!   

sure, mebbe i would come out a few dollars ahead, even after taking a hit selling my samsons, as i would be replacing them w/something much cheaper.  but, why bother, when the system is so perfectly matched - sonically and visually - unless the improvements truly put the sound in a different league?  (of course for some, even if an improvement is a tiny fraction, it is worth making a switch.)  but, w/no skin in the game, as i don't own the samsons, if i were in the market for a high power amp, it is a no-brainer to buy the ncores.  even if i could find used samsons at 50% of retail, the ncores will still be ~$1k cheaper brand-new.  and the samsons are simply one of many more expensive amps that the ncores are comparable to, if not outright better.  and, i really do like the idea that the ncore amps are so efficient; it really appeals to my ideas regarding energy efficiency and the enwironment.  for me, if i have to split hairs to decide whether or not i want on amp or another, the efficiency of the ncores tips the scales heavily in their favor.

i was more impressed w/tomS' take on the amps - he had nothing negative to say about anything, only that both amps are great, w/perhaps some differences between them:
"...Ultimately, I think there were some preferences both ways, not absolute, but it was sort of splitting hairs on 2 really great sets of amps...."

and i am interested in getting george's (zybar's) feedback after he takes delivery of his ncores and has had them in his system for a month or three - his take seemed to mirror what tomS was saying about the ncores.  and someday i will own a pair of these, or maybe even two.  but, i will buy them 2nd hand, and whether or not they replace whatever i am using at the time will be determined after a lengthy audition.  i, too, may then consider recouping some costs by selling some amps presently in my inventory.   

and, as has been stated by others, i wanna thank pete for opening up his home, and tomS for bringing over some ncores, so everyone can wicariously enjoy them!   

ymmv,

doug s.

[roscoeiii]

Thanks Tom and Pete from writing enough that I can just briefly hand out my +1s. Evaluating amps that are both such high quality in such a short amount of time is tricky, especially since I had no prior experience with either or the SS8s.

So add my +1 to everything TomS said in the quotes below:

- The amps are probably much more similar than different and both in a special league. Both have great clarity, transparency, and naturalness, and with the SS8's in that room, great bass
- Ultimately, I think there were some preferences both ways, not absolute, but it was sort of splitting hairs on 2 really great sets of amps.

In my listening, I tend to gravitate towards the bass so I didn't pick up on the treble differences Pete mentioned. Pete also had the advantage of listening to a system he was very familiar with and on at least some tracks he knew very well.

What was also pointed out last night at points was that the ncores seemed to have a bit more bass than the Samsons. As Pete (IIRC) said "for better, for worse" (and maybe this little tilt towards bass contributing to what Pete was hearing in the treble?).

I came away from the excellent comparison (and food and company) thinking that I'd need to live with both for a while to come to any solid preferences and conclusions. Close enough in performance that a lengthy comparison felt called for. With familiar equipment and familiar recordings.

Both amps (and Pete's entire system) were fabulous. What a treat to hear them.

[fredgarvin]

Thanks for taking the time to write it up for us, guys.

[fredgarvin]

I guess we can't edit here......did you mention the preamp you used?

[TomS]

Pete and I both own the Tube Research Labs Dude.

[fredgarvin]

Pete and I both own the Tube Research Labs Dude.

Thanks for the quick reply!

[roscoeiii]

I think the comment about the better bass performance of the NCOREs potentially biasing the HF perception is spot on.  When I did my A/B of the NCOREs versus my Class A amps I observed a similar phenomenon.

But just a hypothesis on my part, mind you. Pete knows his system very very well and knew most of the tracks played much better than I did.

My only solid conclusion was that if I was choosing between the two, I'd need to live with them both for a while in order to decide (also let it be noted that I am more of a bass man than a treble guy).

[roscoeiii]

Actually, I'd say it was the quantity, from what I can recollect. But again, this wasn't a system or recordings I am familiar with. Maybe BRM who knows the system and recordings much more intimately can chime in on this.

Based on the amount of time I spent and my unfamiliarity with so much of the music and equipment, I only feel comfortable reporting my impressions in the broadest strokes. I am on the ncore tour and can present more detailed findings once my turn comes.

[harryz]

Any chance that anyone out there 1) lives in the Pacific NW, not too far from Portland, OR and 2) would be willing to have a stranger or two visit to hear the amps?  I've ordered a pair of NC 400s with power supplies and would love to come to see and hear them, along with my friend Kara Chafee of DeHavilland HiFi.  If so, please send me a PM; harryzweben@yahoo.com.

Thanks!

Harry Z

[kevinh]

BTW for those interested in getting the modules a guy at Diyaudio has designer and is offering a mono chassis for sale. Precut fromt and back channel link aslo has digi key part numbers for IEC receptical vinding post and so on.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/205757-hypex-ncore-chassis-coz.html#post3008379

http://www.cozcables.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=12944785

[poseidonsvoice]

I can't wait for the $200 Chinese clones that will surely be out in a couple of months.

Great review, thanks again.

Yes, you have reminded us what Nelson Pass himself has dealt with for years.

I certainly hope there aren't any Chinese clones and with the complex level of discrete and SMD parts on the Ncore 400, it will be a difficult copy. There will be those that unload their Ncore 400 and move on to something else, just like any other item in high end audio for those who can't afford the Ncore as it is priced today.

Jan & Bruno have worked hard to bring this level of performance just as any other manufacturer has with their own product. IMHO they have priced the product fairly commensurate to performance levels that are seen in other commercial products several times the price of the Ncore. Violation of intellectual property is an all too common occurrence and one should not support that at all.

IMHO,
Best,
Anand.

[cab]

I can't wait for the $200 Chinese clones that will surely be out in a couple of months.

Bruno is not a dummie-I believe the modulator is potted which may make a clone, well, extremely difficult....

[jackman]

Aren't these amps made in Asia?  I seem to recall reading that design and final QC are done in EU but amps are made in Europe and Asia.  If they are made in china, don't be surprised if a really similar design doesn't pop up soon. China has no regard for intellectual property.  Knockoffs are a government sponsored strategy. The rest of the world needs to wake up and do something about it. 

If they do pop up for cheap, I would never own or recommend a bootleg version.  This new amp looks pretty cool.  I'm following this thread with great interest