[serengetiplains]

Into the wall: The highs were a little more prominent ...

In this case, we both preferred the sound of the system with the amps plugged into the pc's.

Interesting you should observe that, George.  Those more prominent wall-powered highs could be in part HF hash, giving the Ncore's HFs a bit of champagne bubble.

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Regarding if an amp is straight wire with gain that is a very difficult thing to determine - and in the end pointless.  Take for example the issue of distortion - you can reduce distortion to unbelievably low levels by huge amounts of feedback yet to the ear it sounds as though the life has been sucked out of the music.  The technical reason is since it takes time for feedback to act their is a time lag where distortion can creep though and annoy the ears.  You can probably figure out how to measure that and incorporate it into measurements.  But then you must balance two parameters - distortion and time lag - either is a deviation from a straight wire with gain.  Which do you give the greater weight to - only you, your brain and ears, can determine that - figures never can.

So listen to amps in your system and make up your own mind - that's the fun part of this hobby.

Did some further listening yesterday with Rob and his Ambiance Ribbons who I mentioned in a previous post and here is what we found.

First was a WFS DAC2 into a Modright valve pre amp and a bybeed Spectron digital amp.  Thought I heard the Saber signature of a slight dryness and sibilance but as many have noted about the Saber it was much more palatable feeding it into valves - although not totally eliminated.  Next we put in the NAD M51.  A wetter more honeyed sound with the M51 but interestingly the sibilance control was not as good as the WFS.  It was thought that overall they were pretty equal.  OK we popped in the NCores.  Unfortunately the sound immediately dropped away - voices became very recessed and everything was closed in.  Detail not as good. Treble was not as clean.  Next we put the M51 direct into the Ncores.  Immediate improvement - better detail, voices not closed in and a bit cleaner - but at the cost of a slight hardness to the sound.  It looks like the Ncores may not like valve pre-amp's but of course more experimentation would be required to form any firm conclusions.  We then put the WFS direct into the Spectron.  Yea the dryness and sibilance was now there in full force - but the detail was improved. I personally preferred the valve pre-amp.  Then the M51 was tried direct to the Spectron.  I preferred the M51 that way over the pre-amp.  The Spectron revealed more detail, the slight hardness of the Ncores were gone and the imaging was more refined but compared to the WFS it was a bit dull and not as transparent - I preferred the WFS - which is surprising since unless it is fed with the Off-Ramp it not my favorite DAC - but as always system synergies are everything.

The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill

[jhm731]

What equipment did you use to determine that the Sanders Magetch is "neutral"?

Steve

See my comments at the end of Bill's latest post.

[jhm731]

Hi Guys

Regarding if an amp is straight wire with gain that is a very difficult thing to determine - and in the end pointless.  Take for example the issue of distortion - you can reduce distortion to unbelievably low levels by huge amounts of feedback yet to the ear it sounds as though the life has been sucked out of the music.  The technical reason is since it takes time for feedback to act their is a time lag where distortion can creep though and annoy the ears.  You can probably figure out how to measure that and incorporate it into measurements.  But then you must balance two parameters - distortion and time lag - either is a deviation from a straight wire with gain.  Which do you give the greater weight to - only you, your brain and ears, can determine that - figures never can.

So listen to amps in your system and make up your own mind - that's the fun part of this hobby.

Did some further listening yesterday with Rob and his Ambiance Ribbons who I mentioned in a previous post and here is what we found.

First was a WFS DAC2 into a Modright valve pre amp and a bybeed Spectron digital amp.  Thought I heard the Saber signature of a slight dryness and sibilance but as many have noted about the Saber it was much more palatable feeding it into valves - although not totally eliminated.  Next we put in the NAD M51.  A wetter more honeyed sound with the M51 but interestingly the sibilance control was not as good as the WFS.  It was thought that overall they were pretty equal.  OK we popped in the NCores.  Unfortunately the sound immediately dropped away - voices became very recessed and everything was closed in.  Detail not as good. Treble was not as clean.  Next we put the M51 direct into the Ncores.  Immediate improvement - better detail, voices not closed in and a bit cleaner - but at the cost of a slight hardness to the sound.  It looks like the Ncores may not like valve pre-amp's but of course more experimentation would be required to form any firm conclusions.  We then put the WFS direct into the Spectron.  Yea the dryness and sibilance was now there in full force - but the detail was improved. I personally preferred the valve pre-amp.  Then the M51 was tried direct to the Spectron.  I preferred the M51 that way over the pre-amp.  The Spectron revealed more detail, the slight hardness of the Ncores were gone and the imaging was more refined but compared to the WFS it was a bit dull and not as transparent - I preferred the WFS - which is surprising since unless it is fed with the Off-Ramp it not my favorite DAC - but as always system synergies are everything.

The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill

Thanks for the interesting feedback.

The Spectron is an excellent amp and can be found at very attractive prices on the used market.

A friend recently replaced his Spectron with a Sanders Magtech, which he felt
was more neutral sounding.
 
If you can find a Magtech down in your part of the planet, give it a listen.

[cab]

.... but as always system synergies are everything.

The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill

I guess synergies are everything as the amps the ncores replaced in my system were in fact Spectrons....

[*Scotty*]

cab, which amp produced the largest sound-stage in terms of height,width, depth and envelopment between the two amplifiers? Also, did one amp have a better sense of dynamic life and freedom from compression than the other.
Scotty

[cab]

I can't think of a single thing the Spectron did better than the ncores....They do have more power, but I found the ncores to have all I will need, and then some....Spectrons are very good, but the ncores are in another league, in my experience.

[a.wayne]

What's the cost of a mono pr and will it drive scintillas ....?

[Rclark]

One of the first amps beaten was a $20,000 Accuphase, so cost doesn't have anything to do with it, other than giving you a huge psychological bias to like the more expensive amp, particularly if you own it.

[bhobba]

What's the cost of a mono pr and will it drive scintillas ....?

The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

If you can find a Magtech down in your part of the planet, give it a listen.

Funny you mention that the guy with the Spectrons had a Magtech there and I will check it out sometime.  He thinks the Spectron was better.

But system synergies, personal preferences, etc play havoc with actually saying, in a definitive way, what is better than what.  All you can say is is something worth your while seeking out and checking out.  The Ncores are IMHO.

Thanks
Bill

[jhm731]

Funny you mention that the guy with the Spectrons had a Magtech there and I will check it out sometime.  He thinks the Spectron was better.

But system synergies, personal preferences, etc play havoc with actually saying, in a definitive way, what is better than what.  All you can say is is something worth your while seeking out and checking out.  The Ncores are IMHO.

Thanks
Bill

Bill,
 
Suggest you and the guy with the Spectrons read the Magtech review on Stereotimes.com.

I have no dog in this hunt, I don't own Spectrons, Magtechs or the NCores.

I'm listening to a $200. Pioneer receiver recommended by Dr.Geddes. If the NCores are as good as everyone reports, I'll try to find the funds to put together some monos.

Just hope I don't need a $4K+ preamp like George and jtwrace
to make them sound good.

[Rclark]

I'm going to pair them with a $900 preamp, I'll let you know.

[bhobba]

Suggest you and the guy with the Spectrons read the Magtech review on Stereotimes.com.

Don't start me on reviewers.  The times I have read some supposedly expert reviewer says something is the greatest thing since sliced bread only to get it and think - what kind of oxygen are they breathing - I really have lost count.

Just one example. The reviews of B&W 802D's were effusive.  Then I had a guy I know with measuring equipment ring me and said he got a pair and come on over and have a listen.  I did.  Bottom heavy, out of balance and grungy - not high end by any stretch of the imagination.  He then showed me the measurements - the frequency response went down and you could see two suck-outs at the crossover's.  It measured just like it sounded.  I have zero idea what the reviewers who raved about them were listening to but if it was the same as the speaker I heard they should first get their ears cleaned out then listen to some genuinely neutral and accurate speakers.

Sorry mate I take what reviewers gaggle on about these days with a grain of salt.

Thanks
Bill 

[rklein]

Just hope I don't need a $4K+ preamp like George and jtwrace
to make them sound good.

I listened to Jason's NCores through my Nightshade Audio Beacon III preamp, which is not as expensive as George's Atma-spher or Jason's TRL Dude and the NCores impressed me greatly.

Regards

Randy

[ted_b]

The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill

Bill,
This thread is for listening impressions, and I gather that is your "impression".  It is not fact, however; in my system I clearly stated that I needed more power (current or voltage, not sure) to produce the dynamics that my KWA-150's produce.  My speakers are different than yours, etc.  I brought up the idea of bridging them.

I owned bridged Spectron monos.  They are also more dynamic, but in many other categories, other than overall bass control, the NCores were clearly superior in my system.  (Note: Spectron audio memory only.  )

[jtwrace]

Bill,
This thread is for listening impressions

Thanks for mentioning this Ted.  I'd really like to keep it that way too.  You guys are more then welcome to start a new thread to speak all about this stuff though.     It just makes it much easier for people to read through the impression thread.

I could certainly move the posts to a new thread if everyone was good with that too.

Thanks. 

[doug s.]

The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill

scintilla's will present a load of 1 ohm or lower to an amp; i don't think your answer has addressed the question.  "having enough" power" isn't the question, the question is whether or not the ncores are stable w/loads that dip below 1 ohm.

doug s.

[*Scotty*]

I think this is a question that only Bruno can answer, he might have even tested an Ncore to destruction on low impedance loads.
  If I was to hazard a guess, I wouldn't be surprised to see the protection circuitry kick in with loads of this kind and their associated HIGH current levels.
Scotty

[a.wayne]

The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill

Will it drive a 1 ohm load , it's rated max is 25 amp's  and what's the cost . ?