[jtwrace]

bhobba

What speakers do you use?

Even better, what's the rest of your system?  Can you post a picture of your room?

[bhobba]

i also find this wery interesting.  it seems to get at the dilemma of what is meant by "accuracy" - does it measure perfectly, and mimic the recording perfectly?  or does it sound more like real music? 

Accuracy means exactly that - how truthful it is to the source.  But you have a brain that interprets this stuff and strict accuracy may or may not trick it into saying - this is real.  This is well known to speaker designers where a speaker alignment of .5 - called transient perfect - is the most accurate.  However experiments have shown most people find it too tight and not as real sounding as a slightly higher alignment of .6 or even .65.  Such an alignment is still very accurate but for some reason tricks the brain better.  That's an example of something experiments have shown applies to most people.

I recently heard of a comparison of a top of the line DAC fed via a computer to a top of the line turntable.  In the opinion of the person that did the comparison the DAC MURDERED the turntable - but guess what - it was 50-50 which was preferred.  I also demo my system with various amps to a number of people - some say my Trafomatic is simply magical and it is the amp I should use all the time - forget about my other stuff.  Others say its buttery and slushy and I should forget about it.  These are examples of where it is different for different people. 

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

What speakers do you use? Even better, what's the rest of your system?  Can you post a picture of your room?

I did mention it in my post - but you probably don't know them in the US - they are well known in the audiophile community here in Aus though - they are ML3 Reference:
http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/index.php/products/ml3-speakers.html

They are lined with steel and are pretty much the deadest thing out there.  The crossover is fully tricked out with Duelund VSF copper capacators which, while generally considered the best, at about $500.00 a pop are so hellishly expensive virtually no other manufacturer uses them.

Here are some older pictures of my system back when I had a Leben - I have since moved on to a Trafomatic Experience 2 and NAKSA 100:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5463

Thanks
Bill

[Phil]

Bill,
such an honest appraisal is appreciated.  I want my brain fooled too, just need to decide which piece of gear is responsible for that.  Ideally, for me, that would be the source and all that follows would be neutral.  Jason just caught my attention with his comment about the metric halo.  hmmmm.  feed the vice for nice....

That said, I can't help but wonder if reducing distortion in all equipment, connections and speakers might yield a musical system that is true to the source.  And, how much it would cost for such a system.

[doug s.]

Accuracy means exactly that - how truthful it is to the source.  But you have a brain that interprets this stuff and strict accuracy may or may not trick it into saying - this is real.  This is well known to speaker designers where a speaker alignment of .5 - called transient perfect - is the most accurate.  However experiments have shown most people find it too tight and not as real sounding as a slightly higher alignment of .6 or even .65.  Such an alignment is still very accurate but for some reason tricks the brain better.  That's an example of something experiments have shown applies to most people.

this simply proves what i was saying/asking - what, exactly, does "how truthful it is to the source" really mean?  to me, it means how "real" can it sound, which is not necessarily what is most technically accurate in measurable electronic terms.

what transpires electronically from the recording mic thru the electronics all the way to the playback speakers may be the most technically accurate, but if something that is less technically accurate makes what happened before the info actually reached the recording mic seem more real, then it is possible that it is in fact more accurate, but we simply are not measuring everything that is most important...

to me, by definition, if it sounds more "real", then ipso facto, it has to be more "accurate".

doug s.

[roscoeiii]

jackman came over earlier today and we had a nice session with the ncores. He brought his Coda 4/3/2 amp. While I have the SP Techs still in my listening room, we only listened through my recently acquired Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen II speakers. Here are the main observations that we made:

1) The ncores have an iron grip over the bass. This stood out more than anything. It was particularly obvious when playing Side A of the second LP from  James Blake's self-titled album. Some really subterranean bass on thos tracks, particularly the first track. The bass advantages were still there but much less evident on tracks with more normal (non-computer produced) sources of bass like bass guitar and bass drum.  The James Blake is a grueling test for low low bass grunt and control. 

2) The Coda amp jackman brought had a good deal more midrange emphasis. In the midrange, it felt like there was more meat on the bones with the Coda. But neither the low or top end was as convincing as with the ncore (the top end of the ncore was excellent). The ncore across the entire spectrum felt like a more precise sound, with great definition and detail retrieval.

All the above was using my Musical Fidelity kW preamp whose measurements are pretty stellar (details here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-kw-hybrid-line-preamplifier-kw750-power-amplifier-kw-hybrid-measurements )

3) To try to get some of the midrange body with the ncore, I brought out my Little Dot VI balanced tube headphone amp/preamp (which it should be noted was primarily designed for headphone amp use). This paired with the ncore got us a midrange with body that was midway between the kW & Coda and the kW and the ncore. On the James Blake, the VI didn't have the bass control of the hybrid kW monster. But both jackman and I preferred the VI with the ncore on tracks from Ziggy Stardust (great new LP pressing of this, BTW). Here we got some really fabulous layering of the soundstage (much more front-to-back soundstage). That combo just clicked with the Bowie (which it mus be said is much more representative of most people's musical content. The Blake is one helluva bass stress test, but there isn't a lot of music that goes that low).

And all of the above was played through my vinyl rig (Townshend Rock 7, with a Rega RB301 to a Dynavector P75).

A great afternoon listening to music. Before packing the ncore up and getting them off to the next stop, I will see how it does with my SP Tech Minis.

[hifial]

I would like to address several points.

The following IMHO:
1) The Ncore 400 cost should be compared to the new retail of any amp it is being compared against. Even if the Ncore is DIY it is NEW not used and such it is only fair to use the new cost of whatever it is compared to. Example is the Cherry amp. Even if one prefers the Cherry it is several thousand dollars more. And the same can be said for all the others if I am not mistaken. And we are comparing a DIY to mostly OEM. I for one am REALLY CURIOUS as to how the OEM Ncore 1200 sounds against these OEMs and others that are close in price. And I know of a one Ncore 1200 coming out that will be very competitive in price (no I can not say, I would have to kill you if I told you ).

2) If you want an amp that ADDS a particular sound, harmonics, more bass, what have you, that is your choice, but do not hold it against the Ncore, that it is even handed top to bottom. Or that other pieces in you system might be the weak link. Most things in our systems are part of the "weak link" for "sound" that has been engineered into it. Most of the CD players, turntable cartridges, preamp, cabling etc are compromises in sound. It is very hard to find a piece that is even handed and does not add its own sound to the playback. Many times it is ones own system that is the problem and not the piece one is demoing in the system. That fact that so many people in so many different systems with so many different tastes in music (not only on AC) come to describe the Ncore 400 as not having or adding a sound of its own is a testament as to how good it really is. Again, if you want vanilla over chocolate or rocky road over mint chocolate chip that is great but it is a matter of taste (we all know chocolate RULES).   

3) I will be the first person to defend that what one hears and describes in their system is just as important as any other and is no less a value to the discussion. We learn from each other, here or in a classroom. 

4) I have never heard an amp like the Ncore 400 and while it may not be everyones "flavor" it is the first time I have heard "a wire with gain" if you know what I mean.
 
Well that is it for now.   

[serengetiplains]

Roscoe, do I summarize correctly to say the Ncore's sound wasn't perfect and could be improved? 

[roscoeiii]

I will respectfully disagree with the "straight wire with gain" claims for the ncore, and I would instead say it is another flavor (and a flavor with some considerable strengths). At this level of amplifier, the question is which flavor best suits your system and preferences. There are instances and certain music where I would prefer the Coda's excellent midrange, even though the frequency extremes weren't nearly as well done as the ncore. And many single driver speaker & tube fans also choose to make similar choices. Personally, I'd want the frequency extremes that the ncore excels in. But I find myself feeling much as I did after comparing the Well Tempered Amadeus with the Townshend Rock 7. Both are great choices and it comes down to personal preferences. A damn shame my Butler 2250 wasn't back from repairs due to UPS damage. That would be a fairer playing field for comparison.

[roscoeiii]

And as I have said before, system synergy and matches to personal preferences is everything. That the ncore appeals to so many different audiophiles with suc6h different systems is very very impressive, esp at it price.

The combos I would love to hear with ncores in my system are an Atma-sphere or Dude preamp.

[hifial]

Roscoeiii, while I agree with you in most aspects I respectfully disagree with you about the "straight wire with gain" as the Ncore has no real flavor, as many who have heard it have posted. That is, to me at least, its greatest strength. It is a clean base to build from. But I can see were one might consider that as another flavor. IMHO.

[serengetiplains]

hifial, does "no flavor" = perfect? 

If it does, you have quite a claim on your hands.

If it doesn't, what is imperfection but flavor?

[jtwrace]

The combos I would love to hear with ncores in my system are an Atma-sphere or Dude preamp.

 

You're welcome over any time!     I think it's magical.   

[zybar]

And as I have said before, system synergy and matches to personal preferences is everything. That the ncore appeals to so many different audiophiles with suc6h different systems is very very impressive, esp at it price.

The combos I would love to hear with ncores in my system are an Atma-sphere or Dude preamp.

It is indeed magical.

While my Atma-Sphere amps may eventually be sold, I have no plans on letting go of my Atma-Sphere preamp.

George

[Phil]

Roscoe,
Nice review.  Too bad about not having the Butler.  In a few weeks, I'll have my ncores in place. I'm looking forward to hearing how much of the tube sound I love is contributed by the source and how much tube goodness the Butler contributed.

I won't be able to do an A/B comparison, but some of the most familiar music should make it obvious.

Phil

[jtwrace]

It is indeed magical.

While my Atma-Sphere amps may eventually be sold, I have no plans on letting go of my Atma-Sphere preamp.

George

That's great to hear!  I take it that you have a dead silent background too? 

[jhm731]

-Most of the CD players, turntable cartridges, preamp, cabling etc are compromises in sound. It is very hard to find a piece that is even handed and does not add its own sound to the playback.

-I have never heard an amp like the Ncore 400 and while it may not be everyones "flavor" it is the first time I have heard "a wire with gain" if you know what I mean.

If your first point is true, what equipment did you use to determine that the Ncore 400's "a wire with gain"?

If you want to hear a neutral amp with dead silent background, try a Sanders Magtech.

[srb]

If you want to hear a neutral amp with dead silent background, try a Sanders Magtech.

What equipment did you use to determine that the Sanders Magetch is "neutral"?

Steve

[zybar]

That's great to hear!  I take it that you have a dead silent background too?

Yes.

BTW, I tried the amps plugged directly into the wall today vs. being plugged into my Furman/UberBuss combo - thanks to my froend David for doing the changes and picking some great music for our comparison (Kenny Burell, Elvis Costello, Bowie, Jerry Garcia, and Bob Marley to name a few).

We both immediately heard a difference each time we made a switch.  While we both preferred one setup over the other, I want to stay that both sounded good.

Into the wall: The highs were a little more prominent and the midrange was a little thinner.  The overall sound was a smidge more open and airy than what I am used to hearing.

Into the pc's:  The highs were slightly constricted and not quite as free sounding.  The midrange was more palpable and weighty, which provides a more "you are there" sound.

In both cases the bass was excellent all-around.

Everything in this hobby is about personal choices and preferences.  In this case, we both preferred the sound of the system with the amps plugged into the pc's.

Looks like I am in the minority on this one.

George

[poseidonsvoice]

Looks like I am in the minority on this one.

George

Actually, jtwrace had it plugged into his Über when I listened to it a few months ago at his place.

Anand.