[ted_b]

Hmm, I did not say we were not impressed.  On the contrary...I simply said it wasn't a WOW moment, but instead a "hmm, this is very special, these guys are keeping up" moment.  The Modwrights were a tough act to follow, so not having a "blown away" or "smoked" or "dusted" adjective does not mean I wasn't impressed (and I tend to wait to describe impressions anyway, especially since they were cold out of the box) .  Rob and Randy may have even had WOW responses, but I'll let them tell in their own words.  And yes, all connectors were connected.    As stated in the initial feedback, we used the same aftermarket pc's as the Modwrights, with the only change being unhooking the Audience AR1-P single plug power conditioners from the ac path, as per owner recommendations.  The pc's are non-ferrite Cardas Golden Reference.  I've not played with swapping out other pc's (Kaplan, Synergistic, Black Sand, Lessloss).  They might react differently than the Modwright, yes, but that's true of the speaker cables (ASI Liveline) and the interconnects too.  I am not going to a/b every variable for this short feedback session.  I've already been asked to move my speakers, etc.  Not gonna happen, sorry.  And finally, as already stated the amps haven't changed much from the first several hours of settle in.

[lonewolfny42]

Ted...

Try some low (volume) level listening.

During my listening at Paul's, noticed how "full" they sounded at that level...pretty cool.

[ted_b]

Chris, Hi.  Yes, did that quite a bit (I read these impressions before testing).  They are nice at low level, as they should be.

[lonewolfny42]

Chris, Hi.  Yes, did that quite a bit (I read these impressions before testing).  They are nice at low level, as they should be.

Great...thanks Ted.

Reason I asked....there are some amps that "just don't get going" until you turn them up.

Have fun...

[ted_b]

Chris, does it surprise you that these midgets are driving my Mundorf-max'd Revs as well as they are so far?  As I stated maybe in another Hypex thread, I am not sure what to listen for to uncover "underpowered" except for the obvious clipping.  Nothing obvious so far, but I have described them as less dynamic than what I am used to; wonder if bridging solves that?  George described a slight reduction in "air" (although others claimed his ATMA's overly enhance "air") and i would have to concur that effect with my listening, but it's not like describing faults...just differences.

[hifial]

Ted, I did look at your previous posts but must have missed the power cords. Also I must have misconstrued your statement on your first listen. As I said in my post, it was all meant as suggestions to try, if you had not yet, from someone who has heard them in several different systems, not criticizing. I look foreword to your finale review.

To all:
I will say I was very surprised how much of a difference vibration control had on the sound of the amps. As an audiophile engineer I know always likes to tell me " SS amps can not benefit from footers". I have to disagree,  especially after the Ncore. Mind that this was noticed by several (everyone in the room) people, some who had the Ncore as part of the tour and had heard it before in their system. Some had put the amps on speaker stands to help isolate it, others on top of their own amps. But I think the Ncore need to be placed on their own set of vibration control, in direct contact. Not every set of footers we tried improved the sound (all agreed). Some made it more dark and soft, though I guess that in some systems that might help, but not in mine. I feel, many do think with regard to the Ncore that it is pretty much set and forget, nothing to mess with.

Well, I will try and post what my impressions are on the Ncore as soon as I have a chance. 

 

[lonewolfny42]

Ted....

Chris, does it surprise you that these midgets are driving my Mundorf-max'd Revs as well as they are so far?

Yes...and no.
I know at Paul's/Occam's....on his Marten Miles II,  2 1/2 way floorstanders...they had no problems at high levels...held together just fine....no clipping.Listened for 5 hours....over 50 different tracks played.

And at low levels....still sounded very full...and dynamic.

Since I've heard the SP Tech Rev's....and own the Mini's and TP 2.0's...I know they like good clean power to sound their best. Your speakers...and also PeteG's will be a good audition.

Nothing obvious so far, but I have described them as less dynamic than what I am used to; wonder if bridging solves that?

Maybe..... ...once again system dependent.
I thought the amps presented a very neutral sound...and the bass it surprise me...for such little "mini's"....

As mentioned in this thread earlier....I like them.

P.S. ...I should add....at Paul's(Occam)....no preamp was used...see his review.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1088532#msg1088532

[hifial]

Ted, I have B&W 802D speakers and as much as they will play very well with 200watts, the more clean power I give them the better they sound. They are rated around 90db, 8ohm (dip to 4) and 50-500 watt. It is hard to put into words but they just sound better with more power. I agree that if the Ncore were bridged that would make a difference. I will either bi-amp or bridge my Ncore (can not decide yet). Also that is something else the B&W like, bi-amping or bi-wiring. Noticeable improvement in control and top to bottom extension and dynamics. 

[ted_b]

Hifial,
Yes it's always a tough decision on biamping vs bridging.  Kind of two sides to a coin.  In one case the tweeters get their own headroom, but in the other everyone benefits from more power.

And sorry, I didn't specify actual power cord brands in my first impressions, if that's what you meant.

Chris, thanks.  I'm thinking similarly.  Since bridging involves only two more modules (no power SMPS's) the temptation would be great.  To me, the dynamics are my heroin, and I'm starting to shake a little.   

[AmpDesigner333]

Curious if anyone has had the chance to A/B compare with Cherry amps yet....

Sorry if this has already been answered but there are just too many posts to go through to find out the hard way!

Thanks, and happy listening!

-Tommy O
 

[srb]

Sorry if this has already been answered but there are just too many posts to go through to find out the hard way!

The easy way is to just click the Print tab at the top right (or bottom right) of the page which will return a long single unformatted page containing all of the posts.  You can then use the Find command to search for the text you are looking for.

Steve

[AmpDesigner333]

The easy way is to just click the Print tab at the top right (or bottom right) of the page which will return a long single unformatted page containing all of the posts.  You can then use the Find command to search for the text you are looking for.

Steve

Doesn't work so well when trying that on an iPad, so I'll need to wait until I'm at a PC....  Good idea, though.   Thanks.
 

[rklein]

Good Evening:

It is just before midnight here in Ohio.  My Memorial Day weekend was extremely busy with relatives in town along with an unexpected problem in regards to my Mom's house which I am trying to get ready to put on the market.

I sincerely apologize for not getting my impressions of the NCores on AC.  I will try and post them by end of Monday.  I will say that I was greatly impressed with these amps and will go into greater detail in my post tomorrow.

Regards,

Randy

[Rclark]

Curious if anyone has had the chance to A/B compare with Cherry amps yet....

Sorry if this has already been answered but there are just too many posts to go through to find out the hard way!

Thanks, and happy listening!

-Tommy O

 Haven't yet seen your amps compared. I've read everything available.

[ted_b]

FedEx has the Ncores.  I waived bye bye with some fond memories and some sadness.

OK, well, here are, IMHO, the five best amps I’ve ever heard (for longer than 10 minutes or not solely at a Show)
Pass Labs XA .5 series
Clayton monoblocks
My Modwright KWA-150 monoblocks
Sanders Magtechs in monoblock mode
Hypex Ncore NC400’s

No, I haven’t heard hundreds of amps, and REALLY haven’t heard a good tube amp for a protracted amount of time, so this small list is simply mine for reference.  However, I have heard lots of amps, lots of Class D and Class A and Class AB and whatever.  Spectrons, Krells, BATs, NuForces, etc.   I’ve never heard an amp quieter or more resolving than the NCores, ever.  Quiet as in black, darkness, void…and this with goofy RCA-to-XLR adapters mind you.

The music that the NCores produce is smooth, relaxing, neutral (whatever that perspective is for me) and several orders of magnitude different than any Class D I’ve ever heard.  Usually Class D is resolving to a fault, meaning it faults in the upper atmosphere of haze, tininess and ethereal digititis.  Not the NCores.  They don’t call attention to any one aspect, and are the ultimate “transformer” for fixing a system that is slightly bright, or digital sounding (again, how weird to ask a digital amp to fix a digital sounding system). 

As I stated in my first listen on Friday night, the biggest issue one needs to get over is the fact that they will keep up with probably any amp you compare them to.  In my system they accomplished 95-99% of what I asked them to do, and for what….like $1800??  And in many less power-hungry systems, or for many less-dynamic hungry listeners, they will likely do 100+%.  Their diminutive physical presence is almost a problem, due to bias and expectation.  It’s like hearing those great modern mini-monitors and swearing a subwoofer must be on somewhere….so you have an obstacle going in that shouldn’t be there. 

On a purely personal level, I am not going to replace my Modwrights with the NCores, based on this wonderfully generous evaluation from Jason (and taking eval time away from generous Randy).  As I said, these mighty mites did almost everything I needed, but what they failed to bring to my ears was a deal-breaker of sorts, albeit small in perspective.   I am used to the possibly-artificial-but-nonetheless-important air and presence that my KWA-150’s impart.  A sort of dynamic that, given the right recording, makes a Marshall amp sound like it is in the room and electrifying the air.  The NCores make it sound like I am listening to that recording perfectly; the KWA’s make it sound like the recording is happening in my room.  This dynamic is not evident on many recordings, but when it is, I need it.  My hunch is that a possible solution may be quite simple…bridged mono configurations.  And I have an idea that will allow this eval to happen (I buy and have built bridged monos with 4 modules and 2 SMPS’s, then if I am wrong I use one mono for my center channel amp, and reconfig the other  to be my 2 channel surround music amp…selling my 2 existing McCormack DNA amps in the process).

Anyway, the evaluation and listening session were quite revelatory.  This amp architecture will change forever the stature and positioning of Class D, and will shake up the value proposition for DIY amplification. 

Thanks again to Jason for the stupidity, er, generosity of loaning the amps to us AC goofballs, to TomS for his adapters and overall help with this momentum, and to Randy for his generous offer to split time.  I gained a new local audio buddy in the process, and if that’s all that comes out of this…I’m ahead anyway. 

[Don_S]

Ted,

Well written. A very useful perspective.

[Chris Adams]

Thanks, Ted! Informative info presented without bias.

[poseidonsvoice]

Great review Ted. I'm just happy that they stood with the likes of the Modwright KWA-150's. That's high praise in and of itself. Beating those amps wasn't the issue. But matching or nearly matching them in speed, finesse, soundstaging, etc...is a tremendous achievement given the incredibly low cost of entry.

Anand.

[rklein]

I received Jason’s NCores on May 22nd.  I listened for around 2 1/2 hours Tuesday night and again on early Wednesday morning until my wife threatened me with bodily harm if I didn’t get to my office.  Back at it Wednesday evening for a couple of hours and again on Thursday evening for two to three hours.

As some of you already know, I am a classically trained musician.  I have had the opportunity to play in the Philadelphia Orchestra and Pittsburgh Symphony while in college and played in symphony orchestras for over 35 years.  Around 24 years ago, I had to give up being a full-time orchestral musician.  While I don’t play as much as I used to, I still am the Principal Clarinet of the Canton Symphony Orchestra and also play in the Cleveland Pops Orchestra.

What I listen for and what “floats my boat” is not so much hearing every little thing that was recorded but more the timbre and tone of the recording.  In addition, the musicality of the artist is way more important to me than whether the recording medium vinyl, Redbook, Hires, DSD, etc.  This view sometimes is in direct conflict of what audiophiles might consider to be a “great” recording.  An example of this would be my collection of 78 recordings of Fritz Kreisler, who was a great Austrian violin virtuoso at the end of the 19th and early 20th century.  Even though the audio quality on the 78’s are pretty atrocious, one can easily hear Kreisler’s burnished tone and the warmth of his playing shine right through.

My set-up is as follows:
Nightshade Audio Beacon III Pre with 3 6SN7’s
Nightshade Audio NS-60 SE tube rectified with 4 Black Treasure KT-88’s and 3 6SN7’s
Empire 598 TT (not used with the NCores)
Very inexpensive DAC purchased from Chris Adams (using until I decide on whether I am going to build my Buffalo III with Paul Hynes regs or buy something like the Mytek…)
Selah Audio TRT speakers which I DIY’d (Raal tweeter with 2 Scan Speak Revelator Woofers)
Morrow SP3 bi-wired speaker cable
Morrow MA4 IC’s throughout
Computer front end using foobar 2000 fed to a John Kenny MKII USB/SPDIF converter

I tended to play more complex music during my time with the NCores.  Except for the Diana Krall cut “The GirI in the Other Room” and Melody Gardot’s rendition of “Over the Rainbow”, I made it a point to stay away from a “chick with a guitar”.

My playlist was as follows:
Acoustic Alchemy      Casino
Diana Krall      The Girl in the Other Room
Melody Gardot      Over the Rainbow
Cleveland Orchestra  Madrigal from Prokofiev’s Romeo & Juliet conducted by Lorin MaazelTaylor Engesti      Promenade
Stevie Ray Vaughn      Tin Pan Alley
Herbie Hancock      Sting singing Sister Moon(Possibilities Album)
Berlin Philharmonic      Mahler’s Symphony No. 9 in D, 3rd Movement
Music from Marlboro   Schubert’s Der Hirt auf dem Felsen, (recorded live in 1960)   

I realize that we talk in terms of creating a “wider soundstage” at times.  Well, with the NCores, what I noticed was not so much a wider soundstage but rather a more defined soundstage.  The performers were in their correct positions.  I could absolutely picture Stevie Ray Vaughn sitting not way out in front but right with bass guitarist Tommy Shannon. 

With Dianna Krall, there is something about her voice that makes me turn her off after 3 or 4 cuts.  With the NCores, I turned her off after two cuts.  What I mean by this is that the NCores brought out the very timbre in her voice that I don't care for.  I feel that this is a good thing as it tells me the NCores are an "honest" amp. 

I was listening to a live performance that was recorded back in the 60's from the Marlboro Summer Music Festival.  The performers were
Rudolf Serkin - Piano
Benita Valente - Soprano
Harold Wright - Clarinet

I backed up the recording a couple of times to make sure what I was hearing.  Keep in mind that I have listened to this recording many times over the last 35 years either on vinyl or CD or ripped to my hard drive.  Last night, I actually heard Rudolf Serkin grunting/humming during this performance.  I really don't give a shit like some people do when it comes to hearing every little thing on the recording  However, I found this kind of cool that I was hearing stuff that everyone in the audience probably heard during the live performance but not necessarily on the recording.

I also heard a better layering of the different instruments in orchestral pieces.  I was very impressed how the NCores not only had the ability to separate various instruments but how they made my TRT’s image.  Having played in and listened to countless live performances of symphony orchestras, I was impressed with the NCore’s ability to place the instruments in their proper location.

Silence is an important part of any musical composition whether it is classical, jazz, rock, choral, etc.  In the NCore’s case, “silence is golden”.  I was quite taken with the utterly black background during these silent moments.  No hum at all…just silence.

As I stated previously, timbre and tone are on the top of my requirements.  I also want some “warmth” to the sound.  I love my tubes but I have to say that the NCores were able to combine the warmth of tubes with a very good lower frequency sound.  The bass was never non-descript nor was it “flabby”.  It was tuneful and very well controlled but at the same time could be quite visceral when called upon.

I am firmly convinced that even the most efficient speakers can benefit from more headroom.  The NCore’s delivered this in spades.  With my Selah TRT’s there was headroom to spare.

I delivered Jason’s NCores up to TedB on Friday.  Let me say that Ted has done a marvelous job assembling what I must say is the most impressive system I have yet encountered in a private home setting.  His SP Tech Revelation MR-I Mark 4’s combined with Modwright KWA-150 monoblocks were not only beautiful to behold, they were beautiful to listen to!!  Ted is accurate in stating in a previous post that I did turn around from the vaunted listening chair to say “What the frick (not the correct spelling…) are you screwing around for!  Just send the NCores to the next person on the list.”  The imaging was unlike anything I had ever heard.  It was obvious that Ted has taken great pains at not only acquiring SOTA gear but spending a ton of time with room treatments.  What he has been able to achieve sonically, especially with Jeff Hedback’s help is truly wonderful.

After we inserted the NCores into Ted’s system and started our listening, we all agreed that the Revelation speakers sounded a bit more forward with the KWA150 monos.  I differ somewhat with Ted’s “5th row center” explanation in regards to the KWA’s as opposed to “farther out in the hall” with the NCores.  I know what Ted is trying to explain.  I just see it a bit differently.  Let me try and explain this…

I have had the pleasure of playing in and listening to concerts in Carnegie Hall, the Academy of Music(Philadelphia Orchestra) and Severence Hall(Cleveland) and the most expensive seats do not equate to being the "best" seats.  Maybe visually but certainly not from a listening stand point.  The best seats usually are on the lower floor towards the back and perhaps the lower balcony seats.  So in trying to explain myself, when I listen to recordings, I do not want to be in the front row or even the 5th or 6th row... I want to be in the row where the music has had a chance to grow into the complete product.  I want to be in the row where the hall (if any good) has had a chance to do its magic on the sound being produced by perfoming ensemble.  In this regards, the NCores stood “toe to toe” with the KWA-150 monos.  For me it wasn’t which row you were in but rather having “the best seat in the house”.

Let me make my position abundantly clear.  This is NOT a case where the NCores are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they are trashing amps that are multiples in price.  It is a different presentation and the fact that these pygmy amps are in the same discussion as such luminary names such as Atma-spheres, Modwright mono-blocks, Lamm, etc is a testament to the Dutch design team behind the NCores.

I am fortunate that I am in a position to buy (which I did) two NCores along with two SMPS 400 PS’s and keep my current tube amp.  I want to live with them both for a while.  The NS-60 SE has many very good qualities.  However, this post is not what the NS-60 SE can’t do but how the NCores have totally changed what I have thought about Class D amps and their ability to just “get it right” sound-wise and imaging-wise.

Thanks to Jason for allowing me to be part of this listening tour.  It sure was an eye opener for sure.

Regards,

Randy

[SlushPuppy]

Ted, thanks for the review.