Is high-end audio days numbered?

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Elizabeth

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #20 on: 5 Apr 2012, 01:37 am »
Yeah, I root through the couch for change to buy some used CDs...

timind

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #21 on: 5 Apr 2012, 01:51 am »
Maybe it's time we cut back a bit anyway
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/next-great-depression-mit-researchers-predict-global-economic-190352944.html

Then again, if it's true you might as well enjoy it while it lasts.

doug s.

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #22 on: 5 Apr 2012, 02:01 am »
laundrew, high end audio always was, and always will be a lunatic-fringe activity.  so, no, i do not think its days are numbered, in that sense.  i think it will take the end of human ciwilization to cause the end of high-end audio.

but, in that sense, w/happenings in society occurring as you state, and as others have stated, yes, i think it's quite possible that high-end audio's days could be numbered, and it could happen rather sooner than anyone would care to imagine.  yust consider, one simple plausible example - how many days it would take for total chaos to reign if the power grid were to collapse?  3 days?  a week?   :o  we are living in precarious times, methinks...

doug s.

doug s.

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #23 on: 5 Apr 2012, 02:12 am »
Maybe it's time we cut back a bit anyway
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/next-great-depression-mit-researchers-predict-global-economic-190352944.html

Then again, if it's true you might as well enjoy it while it lasts.

i still cannot fathom how the standard business model taught in all business schools assumes unlimited growth...   :scratch:

re: enjoying it while it lasts, it makes me think of a paul simon tune:

have a good time, (released in 1975):

Yesterday it was my birthday
I hung one more year on the line
I should be depressed, my life's a mess
But I'm having a good time

Oh, I've been loving and loving and loving
I'm exhausted from loving so well
I should go to bed but a voice in my head
Says, "Ah, what the Hell"

Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time

Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland
But I think it's all overdone
Exaggerating this and exaggerating that
They don't have no fun

I don't believe what I read in the papers
They're just out to capture my dime
I ain't worrying and I ain't scurrying
I'm having a good time

Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time

Maybe I'm laughing my way to disaster
Maybe my race has been run
Maybe I'm blind to the fate of mankind
But what can be done?

So God bless the goods we was given
And God bless the U. S. of A.
And God bless our standard of livin'
Let's keep it that way and we'll all have a good time

Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time

Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time
Have a good time


doug s.

Elizabeth

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #24 on: 5 Apr 2012, 02:19 am »
I disagree we are in any more of a stressful time than many many others. I grew up with the shadow of instant annhilation from nuclear war.
All sorts of plagues, wars, earthquakes, etc just endless.
I have to say believing 'this' is some special difficult time is just fantasy.
there may have been illusions of safety, or security, but they were illusions.
Any moment a tornado/earthquake. gas line explosion. You name it it is happening and has been happening and will happen.

I estimate every second three people die. (60 years. all die average in sixty years, that is 2,000,000,000 seconds. so everyone is replaced in 2,000,000,000 seconds. thus three per second average die always every day minute moment, and they are not just peacefully going away asleep. And  this has been going on (in smaller numbers) since man has existed.
So why worry?
Added: and in the time it took me to post this, how many went? and in what manner. The fact is life is tough, as the DUDE said: No one gets out alive.
And to live, we each have to kill other life to go on living. Plant, animal, whatever,  even the plants are dependent on the dead for nourishment in the soil...
That is just the way it is. Life. so cool, so horrible.

Johnny2Bad

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #25 on: 5 Apr 2012, 02:24 am »
Hi End Audio's days are no more "numbered" now than they have ever been. This is a niche segment of the market. It's always been so, and always will be.

I'm not sure what people think the market for high quality audio is, overall, but my guess is they vastly over-estimate it. Yet, the products are out there, and we can buy them. I think that is a great thing, and a testament to how seriously the players in the industry approach it.

They are not getting rich off it; if that were the goal, they would be selling some injection-moulded lump of plastic with one 30-pin connector on one end and a 2.5mm phone jack on the other, with some wire in between, and packaging that probably exceeds the manufacturing cost, to the masses, so their iPhone does some thing or another with some audio product.

Many people remember the "scandal' of the oppo blu-ray player and the Lexicon clone of it. I won't go into the details, or comment on how fairly or unfairly Lexicon was seen in the whole affair, but one thing stood out in the information and statements made by the players in the drama.

Lexicon expected to sell thirty five of these Blu-Ray players, worldwide, through their dealer network, during the product's entire retail lifespan. Yes, I said thirty five. This was the projection at the design and development stage, not some reflection of the reduced sales potential after the mess they got into once both players hit the market.

A Hi End manufacturer who sells 200 copies of a product is bordering on the mainstream, sales wise. Some are more successful, but not everyone can be a Bryston or a Rega. The industry is composed of players who can hardly be accused of market ambition. They can be accused of innovative ambition, and that's why they are in the business.

So, I have no idea how you would measure success, let alone determine whether it's days are numbered. There has to be a baseline somewhere to judge improvement or regression; I don't think that baseline would be believed, even if you could get a company who wants to cultivate a reputation for success to tell you exactly how many products sold that their idea of success represents. They'd be afraid to, frankly, because the number would impress no-one.

I had a buddy who built really, really nice motorcycles. 3 a year was his measure of success. He made most of the parts individually, from billets of metal. This was a time when a very expensive custom bike would not get a $20,000 sale price; he was selling his for about 12K. I remember talking to him in his machine shop ... do the economics on that little investment, if you're so inclined ... and the subject of people who didn't want to make improvements, just ride a stock example, and take it to the dealer for service, and maybe let it fall apart a little bit in the meantime. Treat it like a truck they might have in the garage, instead of a special machine.

He said "Well, they just don't give a F*** about bikes."

He didn't say it in a way that was derogatory, or dismissive. It was just reality as he saw it every day.

So, maybe ask yourself the question. And as long as some people answer "I do" the industry will be fine. Because it's not an everyman industry in the first place.

Even if the market for Hi End was 1 in 1000, and I don't believe it is or ever was, that person isn't going to buy one of everything available. He's going to buy one of a thousand offerings, once, and probably keep it for a while. So, right away, we're at one in a million for your sales target, assuming your product is at least competitive. Lord Help You if you're in the speaker business, where 1 in a thousand doesn't come close to the product choices available.

There are players in this industry that would be happy with selling a dozen copies of their audio product in all of Canada. They're still in business. I know of products from the late 70's ... a boom time for audio ... that never sold that many copies in Canada. They were pretty happy with the sales results.

I'm not sure what the price of the equipment has to do with the success or doom of the industry. The wealthy, in my experience, are less interested in Hi End than the average Joe is. The prices just reflect the cost of selling a low volume product into the market. More people into Hi End might lower the costs on average, but it's never been a cheap hobby. And although costs are a concern and a barrier to entry, they don't stop people from entering the hobby. Not caring about audio stops people from entering the hobby.





doug s.

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #26 on: 5 Apr 2012, 03:07 am »
I disagree we are in any more of a stressful time than many many others. I grew up with the shadow of instant annhilation from nuclear war.
All sorts of plagues, wars, earthquakes, etc just endless.
I have to say believing 'this' is some special difficult time is just fantasy.
there may have been illusions of safety, or security, but they were illusions.
Any moment a tornado/earthquake. gas line explosion. You name it it is happening and has been happening and will happen.

I estimate every second three people die. (60 years. all die average in sixty years, that is 2,000,000,000 seconds. so everyone is replaced in 2,000,000,000 seconds. thus three per second average die always every day minute moment, and they are not just peacefully going away asleep. And  this has been going on (in smaller numbers) since man has existed.
So why worry?
Added: and in the time it took me to post this, how many went? and in what manner. The fact is life is tough, as the DUDE said: No one gets out alive.
And to live, we each have to kill other life to go on living. Plant, animal, whatever,  even the plants are dependent on the dead for nourishment in the soil...
That is just the way it is. Life. so cool, so horrible.

the game changer, imo, is "carrying capacity" and the "j-curve".  i believe we are there, or have already passed it.  of course, no one knows for certain.  and i certainly agree w/everything else you say...

doug s.

Rclark

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #27 on: 5 Apr 2012, 03:36 am »
They've proved scientificaliy that groups of people together, thinking in unison affect outcomes, aka some sort of telekensis is likely. We really are connected and it will be interesting to see research in that field continue.

The more we allow these thoughts to dominate, and the more we allow the news to pound it into our heads everyday, the more likely disaster will occur.

I stopped watching the "news" long ago. Now I am strictly Wall Street Journal or conservative non mainstream sources that I have to read, not passively listening to some voice coming at me, or watching some predictable talking head, deciding how I should feel, their opinion underlined with some dramatic musical score.

I say just stay optimistic, do the right things, help people when you can, and smile.

medium jim

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #28 on: 5 Apr 2012, 04:20 am »
Everytime I buy something new for my home stereo I ask myself, will this be good enough to take me to the grave.  While I'm only in my mid 50's, I feel that I could live with what I have for the rest of my life sans a total breakthough that makes what I have obsolete.

There will always be enough out there with disposible income to assure that the high-end will never fade away.  However, there is so much true audiophile gear that is priced mid-fi to fill the void. As stated earlier, for around 5K you can get about 95%, I feel for about 20K you can get to 98 or 99% of those ultra bucks systems....

Jim

werd

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #29 on: 5 Apr 2012, 04:24 am »
Hi end audio days are not numbered. What's numbered are the costs associated in getting gear that gets you into the hi end market. After hearing this Devaliat integrated ( a single component piece that houses everything you need inc dac) it became apparent that the technology is there but just needs to be scaled down in cost. 

http://www.devialet.com/

Pieces like that prove that stuff can be built in one box and sound great.
Although still pricey at 17k, it shows where the technology is headed imo. All we need is one  manufacturer to take it to the next level in price and make it available for under 10k or even 5k and have that kind of performance. I believe its possible in an all in one box configuration.





Diamond Dog

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #30 on: 8 Apr 2012, 07:35 pm »
Hi end audio days are not numbered. What's numbered are the costs associated in getting gear that gets you into the hi end market. After hearing this Devaliat integrated ( a single component piece that houses everything you need inc dac) it became apparent that the technology is there but just needs to be scaled down in cost. 

http://www.devialet.com/

Pieces like that prove that stuff can be built in one box and sound great.
Although still pricey at 17k, it shows where the technology is headed imo. All we need is one  manufacturer to take it to the next level in price and make it available for under 10k or even 5k and have that kind of performance. I believe its possible in an all in one box configuration.

$17 K ???? What an outrageous sum, my good man! Pish Posh I say and Harrrumphhh ! Especially Harrrummmphhh! :P
It can easily be done for far, far less, sir...to wit:

http://esoteric.teac.com/audio_players/rz-1/

And all this for a mere pittance by comparison - a meager $6K...$6K I say!
$17K indeed....I say "Good Day" to you, sir. And once again, Haaaarrrrummmpphhhhh !

D.D.

PRELUDE

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #31 on: 8 Apr 2012, 08:50 pm »
Hi end audio days are not numbered. What's numbered are the costs associated in getting gear that gets you into the hi end market. After hearing this Devaliat integrated ( a single component piece that houses everything you need inc dac) it became apparent that the technology is there but just needs to be scaled down in cost. 

http://www.devialet.com/

Pieces like that prove that stuff can be built in one box and sound great.
Although still pricey at 17k, it shows where the technology is headed imo. All we need is one  manufacturer to take it to the next level in price and make it available for under 10k or even 5k and have that kind of performance. I believe its possible in an all in one box configuration.
I heard this in Montreal show and I thought it would be a good buy for 2 or 3k.I did not ask the price but for 17k I feel like I just touched the 220V.Instead look at the history.http://www.esoteric.jp/about/history/indexe.html
I think D.D is right here you could do it with less and better.

JLM

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #32 on: 8 Apr 2012, 08:56 pm »
Yes, it's always been a niche. 

Yes, there's always been stress in the life.

The future of any individual has always been primarily a factor of that individual and their plans/efforts.  As the OP points out, many routinely live beyond their long term means.

Audio has competition like never before (computer/TV/portable lifestyle), but technology/internet have brought hi-end performance very close to those of "mortals".  A good example is the AVI hifi ADM9T active speakers that accept digital and analog inputs and include remote, high quality DAC, and pre-amp for under $2k USD (just add your computer).  It integrates modern living and modern shopping into a smaller package at a decent price (add a sub for larger rooms).

OzarkTom

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #33 on: 8 Apr 2012, 09:11 pm »
I have been doing my best to keep the ball arollin for high end audio. I have been inviting many friends and neighbors around town to sit in my "sweet spot." :thumb:

And they are loving it.

We need to get more high schools involved in audio speaker design like the one in Texas that goes to the LSAF.

PRELUDE

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #34 on: 8 Apr 2012, 09:23 pm »
Dynaudio has two new models of wireless speakers. the XEO3 and XEO5.
http://www.dynaudio.com/int/home_loudspeaker_systems/xeo/xeo.php
If any one of you are looking for a very compact system, the XEO3 was $2400 and what you get for this price is a monitor speaker with built in amp,dac and dsp.You do not need dac or pre you can connect your Bryston BDP and you done.
The transmitter accepts up to 3 input from turntable to ipod.
Now,Do not you think it is a great value?

ricko01

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #35 on: 13 Apr 2012, 12:08 am »
Dynaudio has two new models of wireless speakers. the XEO3 and XEO5.
http://www.dynaudio.com/int/home_loudspeaker_systems/xeo/xeo.php
If any one of you are looking for a very compact system, the XEO3 was $2400 and what you get for this price is a monitor speaker with built in amp,dac and dsp.You do not need dac or pre you can connect your Bryston BDP and you done.
The transmitter accepts up to 3 input from turntable to ipod.
Now,Do not you think it is a great value?



The transmitter spec says "Wireless signal resolution / sample rate    16 bit / 48 kHz"

Not exactly high hi-end

Peter

Ajani

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #36 on: 14 Apr 2012, 04:30 am »


The transmitter spec says "Wireless signal resolution / sample rate    16 bit / 48 kHz"

Not exactly high hi-end

Peter

High-end or High-res?

The Dynaudio system is intriguing. Shame they only support streaming up to CD quality. But then again, how many persons actually have high res music?

ricko01

Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #37 on: 14 Apr 2012, 10:50 pm »
High-end or High-res?

The Dynaudio system is intriguing. Shame they only support streaming up to CD quality. But then again, how many persons actually have high res music?


I am sure that many vinyl lovers or lovers of hi-rez digital wouldnt want their music squeezed into a 16 bit "pipe".


Ajani

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Re: Is high-end audio days numbered?
« Reply #38 on: 15 Apr 2012, 03:46 pm »

I am sure that many vinyl lovers or lovers of hi-rez digital wouldnt want their music squeezed into a 16 bit "pipe".

Fair enough. Though I don't think many Vinyl lovers would be interested in the XEO, regardless of whether it used 16, 24 or 32 bits. Why mess with a good analog signal?

The high-res lovers definitely won't be impressed, but those persons are relatively few (considering how relatively little high-res content is available).

I do hope that with an improved transmitter that the XEO system will eventually be able to handle high-res and perhaps even a wireless sub for persons who want one.

I think the aim of the XEO is just to be a simple, WAF friendly, high quality system. Not to hit all the audiophile buzzwords. Keep in mind that some audiophiles would reject it out of hand because it is "wireless", so there is no way to please everyone with such a system