[Rclark]

Interesting. So the cap is what limits low frequencies? Why wire out of phase like that?

[Russtafarian]

Why wire out of phase like that?

 
The cap introduces phase shift.  Wiring out of phase partially compensates for that.

At this point we're getting into speaker crossover design stuff, a subject I have only a rudimentary understanding of.  Here's a link (one of many) to give you a quick primer on the subject.  Good stuff to know if you're really into speakers.

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/

Russ

[Rclark]

Ok gotcha....

Nice to know these types of speakers can be tinkered with (that said, the $649 M-Lore might be the one you really want!).

[morganc]

They're all running the same freqs huh? So those things are just meant to get stupid loud in a big space. Well I can cross those off.

Not necessarily.   I am running my Pendragons with a Don Allen 45 tube amp.  And at 2 watts the tone, timbre, imaging, and soundstage is amazing.  2 watts gives me 75-80dB in my room. 

[Rclark]

Interesting... There's another guy here with the Pendragon. I think they might be a perfect option for HT and general listening.

Seems like they'd be excellent with a pair of NCORES.

[Letitroll98]

Ha! Good one Rc.  Please, for Pete's sake, let's stay out of the Ncore wars.  It's been awhile since I've seen such bloodletting on AC.  BTW I have some coming from a tour to my house next week, I wonder if they'll have blood stains on them?    

[Rclark]

The reason I said that is because you have these big burly full rangers with very high efficiency. Perfect match.

You can't say Ncore now without getting kicked in the teeth, but I'm sure all that will die down. It has to.

[fredgarvin]

The reason I said that is because you have these big burly full rangers with very high efficiency. Perfect match.

You can't say Ncore now without getting kicked in the teeth, but I'm sure all that will die down. It has to.

Aren't the ncores 200 watts per side? I'm not sure. That would be a lot of power waste for a speaker like the Tekton, which is designed for high efficiency. Nothing says you couldn't do it though. For a speaker like this I might try a tripath amp or a little tube amp.

[Rclark]

no clipping ever and never any distortion at any level is why it seems like a good combo.

seems like an ultimate setup when you've got the efficiency and also full range.

[Letitroll98]

I agree with Fred to a point.  Yes, the first few watts will be the most important with any high efficiency speaker, and traditionally this has been best handled by flea watt triode tubes and class A solid state that have either very low switching distortion, and/or benign distortion characteristics.  However that doesn't mean the Ncore amps, or any chip amp, does or doesn't fit into these categories.  In other words, the maximum power rating may be irrelevant with Tektons, how an amp sounds at low power output will be relevant.         

[roscoeiii]

In other words, the maximum power rating may be irrelevant with Tektons, how an amp sounds at low power output will be relevant.       

+1 very well said.

[Rclark]

Yeah, that's why I think it would work well, because everything so far shows the core to have phenomenal performance at low level. Bruno said something interesting about this, he says that the makers who claim really good low watt performance, and nothing else, are really just saying the amp sucks after a few watts, not that their 1 watt is gold.

 So... I'll take unmeasurable distortion and no sound or color for 500 Bob. I am definitely intrigued by those amps with high efficiency speakers. High power for true dynamics.

[roscoeiii]

Rclark,

See the honorable Nelson Pass on the subject of the importance of the first watt or so. There is a reason he has a company called FirstWatt. His papers on the FirstWatt website are massively informative. The man is a solid state Class A master.

It may be that the ncores share the characteristics at the first watt that make the FirstWatt amps so successful with appropriate speakers. Or maybe not.

I will be trying the ncores with some Hornshoppe Horns when they stop here on the tour, and will report back on how they compare with my fleawatt tube amps (a MiniWatt N3 and a Decware EL-84 SET).

And after this weekend, I can now say that I have heard ncores, and I can now say from experience that they sound great.

But with speakers like the Lores? Not sure that they will necessarily work great. I was very excited to get an Aleph 30, but found that its damping factor was too high for my single-driver speakers. The bass was overdamped and the bass extension suffered (see some of the Nelson Pass articles on FirstWatt and maybe the 6moons reviews of the F1 and F2 for discussion of this issue of damping and single-driver designs). Based on my experience with the high damping factor Aleph 30, the damping factor of the ncore is a concern with a speaker like the Lore.

Matching speakers with amps is more than just giving a speaker a signal with low distortion. Many other factors come into play. Another interesting discussion of speaker and amp matching would be Ralph from Atma-Sphere's paper on voltage vs. power paradigms.

And then there are listener preferences. Why is there both an F1 and F2 FirstWatt amp? Each matched different listener preferences (which were related to whether 2nd or 3rd order harmonic distortion was more prominent). They were at identical price points.

[medium jim]

You don't need a ton of watts to achieve dynamics, especially with HE speakers. If you can't get the first watt correct...HE speakers are best suited for class A triode which can be absolute bliss.

The next system I will cobble together will be a HE speaker system with a pair of SET amps.  I'm leaning towards Bottlehead amps, speakers are still up in the air, but am leaning towards Klipsch Cornwalls.

As Roscoeiii noted, there is personal preference and 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, class gives the listener both, whereas class a/b only the 2nd order and would assume that class d would be the same.

Jim

[roscoeiii]

Jim, I'd keep the MiniWatts in mind too. Amazingly little noise from those amps. And the MiniWatt N3s sound great with Psvane tubes.

[medium jim]

Roscoeiii:

Bottlehead offers DIY kits for either 2A3's or 300B's that are very reasonably priced. I already have a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp that would work nicely.

Jim

[Rclark]

Roscoei, looking forward to reading about your setup there.  Jim, the intriguing thing for me though is no clipping and no distortion. Putzey has actually said a lot of interesting things about Pass tech.. I think he's the fresh face and Pass has contributed what he will.

back ot, there is actually a guy here with the Pendragon and he loves them. Trying to provoke a review...

[medium jim]

Roscoei, looking forward to reading about your setup there.  Jim, the intriguing thing for me though is no clipping and no distortion. Putzey has actually said a lot of interesting things about Pass tech.. I think he's the fresh face and Pass has contributed what he will.

back ot, there is actually a guy here with the Pendragon and he loves them. Trying to provoke a review...

With say a speaker with an eff of 98db+ clipping is rarely an issue, or is distortion.  The amps I might build are 8.5 watts and because of the power supply have more than enough headroom to drive a pair of Cornwalls to ear splitting levels and without distortion and better yet, being single ended, all of the harmonics will be there. 

Here's a link to them if interested:

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=44&rn=434&action=show_detail

Jim

[roscoeiii]

RClark,

I would strongly recommend not writing off Nelson Pass. Have you looked closely at some of his designs and products over just the past 10 years? The man had a transistor designed just for his company (featured first in his SIT amp). "Contributed what he will"? C'mon, get real. We haven't even seen a high power implementation of his SIT transistor. I will be lining up to hear that one.

As others in multiple threads have mentioned, you are wading into dicey territory with a lot of your statements about amps and designers that as best I can tell you have not heard. Speaking in this way without direct experience is really doing some damage to your credibility. And I know I am not the only one who has said things like this about your posts.

Could I see ncores as amps that I will have for a looong loong time? Yes. But I will definitely ALWAYS follow what Nelson Pass is doing in his amp designs. His nickname is "Papa" for a reason.

In audio, there is no one-size-fits-all amplifier due to both differences in speakers and differences in listeners' preferences. Differences in amp and speaker characteristics is what leads to many folks putting together second systems that look very different from their main systems. That's why I have Hornshoppes & a MiniWatt N3 in my second (bedroom) system and SP Tech Minis and a beefy Butler 2250 in my main (living room) system.

Sorry if this is getting OT in a Lore thread, but I felt that this needed to be said. A lot of the things I have written in the past few posts on this thread encapsulate things I wished I'd known about when I was starting out in this hobby.

[medium jim]

RClark,

I would strongly recommend not writing off Nelson Pass. Have you looked closely at some of his designs and products over just the past 10 years? The man had a transistor designed just for his company (featured first in his SIT amp). "Contributed what he will"? C'mon, get real. We haven't even seen a high power implementation of his SIT transistor. I will be lining up to hear that one.

As others in multiple threads have mentioned, you are wading into dicey territory with a lot of your statements about amps and designers that as best I can tell you have not heard. Speaking in this way without direct experience is really doing some damage to your credibility. And I know I am not the only one who has said things like this about your posts.

Could I see ncores as amps that I will have for a looong loong time? Yes. But I will definitely ALWAYS follow what Nelson Pass is doing in his amp designs. His nickname is "Papa" for a reason.

In audio, there is no one-size-fits-all amplifier due to both differences in speakers and differences in listeners' preferences. Differences in amp and speaker characteristics is what leads to many folks putting together second systems that look very different from their main systems. That's why I have Hornshoppes & a MiniWatt N3 in my second (bedroom) system and SP Tech Minis and a beefy Butler 2250 in my main (living room) system.

Sorry if this is getting OT in a Lore thread, but I felt that this needed to be said. A lot of the things I have written in the past few posts on this thread encapsulate things I wished I'd known about when I was starting out in this hobby.

Nelson Pass is a true genius of the first order....I have to think that Doc of Bottlehead is also no slouch and has a growing Bottlehead following...

Jim