Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?

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Wayner

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #20 on: 17 Mar 2012, 03:04 pm »
No, I'm not. Hopefully they would use the same sampled instrument(s) during each A/B test. This way, the sound source is controlled. I'm not making it complicated, I'm making it easy.

Wayner

gkinberg

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #21 on: 17 Mar 2012, 03:34 pm »
There are some excellent points mentioned so far. In order to get valid data from an experiment (if that is how we want to view this process) it is appropriate to include a positive and negative control to compare to your “test subject”. Therefore, as some have mentioned, include a “crappy” sounding amp (negative control) that has similar or equal values to your positive control (watts, input impedance, etc…). In this experiment you would use the best sounding amp you know of as your positive control. If you can’t tell a difference between the positive and negative control, then there is something wrong with your experimental design. What is wrong is sometimes difficult to determine.
Garth

avahifi

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #22 on: 17 Mar 2012, 03:56 pm »
We certainly can hear the difference between an big Insight solid state amp and the new Synergy solid state amp with the A-B switcher.  That is pretty obvious.

I am beginning to think that the issue is that the new Synergy amp is simply much better than we assumed it was and were just discounting its performance because we knew it was all solid state in making normal sighted comparisons.

Good news anyway for prospected clients, you will get amazing audio performance for your money.

By the way I am not going to talk about comparing the Synergy amp to a big Parasound amp here with our reference system.  :)

By the way, the speakers we use for most comparisons are Salk HT3s (big floor standing full range units with ribbon tweeters and magnesium midrange cones) and a set of older B&W 801s.  Both are low efficiency (around 84-85 dB) and both are known to be difficult to drive properly.  Both sound great with either the Fet Valve hybrid amps or the new Synergy solid state amp.

A local client has big Maganpaners and we send new stuff home with him to evaluate on these great speakers too.  All appears to be a solid go for the launch of the Senergy amps.

The first run of production circuit boards will be here within two weeks and assuming no layout bugs, we will be ready to build and ship the new Synergy amps.  The big one will be $1995, we have not priced the Insight 260 replacement yet, as we have not built a complete lower powered unit yet to figure out build time and complete parts cost.  We will let you all know when they are ready to ship.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #23 on: 17 Mar 2012, 04:22 pm »
I was very fortunate to hear the new SS amp and I am very surprised at the results of the A-B test with the switcher because there was clearly a difference in the sound between the FET Valve and the SS amp when we switched IC's, although both have great sound.  I even brought my Parasound Halo A21 amp over to Frank's and the new SS amp sounded much better. 

The new amp is a winner.  It has no SS signature.  It sounds very tube like.   If Frank gives me the Ok I can give a review of the new amp which is on my list to replace my Parasound.

Art_Chicago

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #24 on: 17 Mar 2012, 04:50 pm »
We certainly can hear the difference between an big Insight solid state amp and the new Synergy solid state amp with the A-B switcher.  That is pretty obvious.

The first run of production circuit boards will be here within two weeks and assuming no layout bugs, we will be ready to build and ship the new Synergy amps.  The big one will be $1995, we have not priced the Insight 260 replacement yet, as we have not built a complete lower powered unit yet to figure out build time and complete parts cost.  We will let you all know when they are ready to ship.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine


Frank, as I understand you are not going to offer a "budget" Synergy amp instead of Insight 240? I guess by 'obvious difference" you mean significant improvement.  It might be a SS bestseller for AVA, who knows.
Art

jlupine

Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #25 on: 17 Mar 2012, 05:49 pm »
Frank,
When you say that the switchbox level matches to the nearest 0.2 dB, are you saying that it does this continuously?  By equalizing output voltage?

Photon46

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #26 on: 18 Mar 2012, 12:01 pm »
There are some excellent points mentioned so far. In order to get valid data from an experiment (if that is how we want to view this process) it is appropriate to include a positive and negative control to compare to your “test subject”. Therefore, as some have mentioned, include a “crappy” sounding amp (negative control) that has similar or equal values to your positive control (watts, input impedance, etc…). In this experiment you would use the best sounding amp you know of as your positive control. If you can’t tell a difference between the positive and negative control, then there is something wrong with your experimental design. What is wrong is sometimes difficult to determine.
Garth

"What is wrong is sometimes difficult to determine." Garth summarized the problem in a nutshell with that statement. The business of how to meaningfully structure blind tests of subjective aesthetic experiences is extremely problematic. Literature is rife with blind tests seemingly demonstrating that differences in wine, food, violins, cables, amplifiers, etc. are indistinguishable when subjected to blind a/b testing. I spent hours yesterday reading differing viewpoints on the validity of blind testing from researchers, reviewers, producers, physicians, and other who were audiophiles. Googling the phrase "problems with a/b blind testing" will provide days of intensive reading.

In a nutshell, many believe if one cannot instantly discern obvious differences between two subjects being compared in the blind test, there are no meaningful differences. If the experimental design is adequate and valid, what do these unexpected outcomes seemingly demonstrating "no difference" really mean? Often, rebuttals of the validity of blind testing revolve around evidence that the act of testing is so psychologically stressful that it skews the perceptual abilities of test subjects. It seems to me that listening to music, playing a great instrument, drinking great wine are all immersive experiences that involve multiple sensory inputs, mind and the body are integrated in the moment. Maybe a mini version of something like the "peak experience" Maslow describes. Being subjected to a blind a/b test experience is nothing like the mindset one is in one's normal aesthetically receptive state, that's for sure.

Most of us who listen to vinyl and have experience with different cartridges believe that there are often fairly substantial differences between them. I rotate between a Grado Master 1 Statement and an Ortofon Kontrapunkt H and they are different sounding transducers. But, if I had to instantly evaluate short snippets of A/B comparisons between them, I'm not confident that I could identify them or hear meaningful differences. It's only in listening to them back to back in extended passages that you gain a mental picture of the way music is reproduced by a given cartridge. If this is the case with a cartridge (a category of transducer, along with speakers, that has the greatest variability) I'm hardly surprised blind comparisons between amps and cables would seemingly demonstrate "no meaningful differences."

As a barely related aside, an earlier post stated that quantum effects are only relevant to the macro world we live in and classical physics rule the realm we observe. The science writer George Johnson gives a fascinating example of one instance that quantum unpredictability pokes its head into the observable macro realm: partial reflection of light off glass. On pages 135-139 of his book "Fire in the Mind," he describes how even when a beam of light is reduced to a uniform monochromatic output, quantum randomness still determines whether a given photon passes through the glass or reflects. If we think of light as only a wave, partial reflection is not mysterious. If we think of photons as particles, the phenomena is baffling.

rcag_ils

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Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #27 on: 19 Mar 2012, 10:48 pm »
Are we making something out of nothing again? Set up for "blind test"? All the prep work you would have to do before the blind test? Just close you eyes, pretend that you are blind, then listen carefully and see which one sounds better to your ears, that is blind test, you don't even have to hide the amps, when I close my eyes, I can't see them.

If you rotate your Grado and your Ortofon cartridges routinely, the headshell of your tonearm should be all worn out by now. I would just try them once or twice, get the geometry right, then leave them alone.

Are you saying that our brains and ears need to be broken in everytime we get a new amp now. That's craziness.

Photon46

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #28 on: 19 Mar 2012, 11:29 pm »

If you rotate your Grado and your Ortofon cartridges routinely, the headshell of your tonearm should be all worn out by now. I would just try them once or twice, get the geometry right, then leave them alone.

Are you saying that our brains and ears need to be broken in everytime we get a new amp now. That's craziness.

Perhaps we have, in the words of H. Ross Perot, "a failure to communicate." I mean rotate cartridges in the sense of swapping the cartridges every 5 or 6 months, not constantly rotating them in the headshell. If a person can't swap cartridges without damaging the head shell, they should probably find another hobby.

As to "breaking in our ears every time we change," in a certain sense, that's exactly what happens any time we get new equipment. We get a big rush when we get new equipment and hear new details, tonal balance, or whatever. Our neural circuits quickly get acclimated to the new normal and before we know it, upgrade-itis sets in and we want new thrills. If you've worn glasses to correct vision problems, you know the same thing happens with the sense of sight. For a short while, the optical circuits are disturbed by the change, then the brain quickly adapts the change.

rcag_ils

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Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #29 on: 19 Mar 2012, 11:38 pm »
Well, my senses must have been different than most. After all these years listening to hifi, I've never have to break in anything, including my brain and ears, no breaking in cable neither, of course. These extensive preparation for a "blind test" talks are just another one of the hifi mumble jumble.
« Last Edit: 20 Mar 2012, 04:25 am by rcag_ils »

rcag_ils

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Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #30 on: 20 Mar 2012, 04:37 am »
Quote
Perhaps we have, in the words of H. Ross Perot, "a failure to communicate." I mean rotate cartridges in the sense of swapping the cartridges every 5 or 6 months, not constantly rotating them in the headshell. If a person can't swap cartridges without damaging the head shell, they should probably find another hobby.

As to "breaking in our ears every time we change," in a certain sense, that's exactly what happens any time we get new equipment. We get a big rush when we get new equipment and hear new details, tonal balance, or whatever. Our neural circuits quickly get acclimated to the new normal and before we know it, upgrade-itis sets in and we want new thrills. If you've worn glasses to correct vision problems, you know the same thing happens with the sense of sight. For a short while, the optical circuits are disturbed by the change, then the brain quickly adapts the change.

Not doubting your ability in changing out a cartridge, but just wondering which cartridge manufacturer would offer a 6 month trial period for customers to decide which one to buy.

My optical circuits would be badly disturbed if the glasses were way off, and I would have to get the glasses corrected, and my brain would not adapt to it. Same with my ears, I may listen to a new amp and compare with the old one for 6 hours or so, if it sounds bad, I wouldn't want it.

R Swerdlow

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Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #31 on: 20 Mar 2012, 06:56 pm »
Garth (above) makes some excellent points about positive and negative controls.  He must have some experience as a lab scientist.  I'd like to expand on his ideas.

Any measuring method is only as good as it's controls demonstrate it is.  Before the A-B box can be used to compare a known sound (an existing amp) to an unknown sound (a newly designed amp) it has to be calibrated against some known standards.  With the appropriate positive and negative controls, you can define how useful this new A-B box is as a measuring tool.

Frank already did one negative control, testing the A-B box vs. a direct connection.  He and others (how many others?) said there was no difference.

In an A-B test of whether two different devices sound different, it is important to limit the listeners’ responses to "Yes I hear a difference" or "No I don't".  Leave preference out.  Obviously, you cannot have a preference if you can't hear a difference.  Human perception is not a simple physical or electrical parameter that can be easily and reliably measured with the appropriate instrument.  It's a complex (read messy) biological function, and the results may not be clean cut.  It's not known whether different listeners will respond similarly or differently, so the numbers of listeners tested matter, the more the better.  I can easily imagine that with Frank's negative control test (above) if enough listeners were tested, some would answer "No they heard no difference", and some would say "Yes".  It is possible that this could be 50% Yes and 50% No.  That may be as clean a result as you can get.  That needs to be determined with real tests.

Another negative control would use the A-B box to test two identical amplifiers.  Don't assume that no one will hear a difference, measure how many hear a difference and how many don't.

The more important test of the A-B box is the positive control.  Think of as a calibration curve.  Test several different sounds that are known to be different, and ask how many listeners hear a difference.  What kinds of sounds should be tested as positive controls?  I really don't know, but here is my simple idea.  Add various amounts of white or pink noise to a digital file of a short passage of cleanly recorded music.  You will have a series of recordings of a short musical passage that contain added noise of 0%, 2.5%, 5%, 7.5%, 10%, etc.

Use the A-B box to test each listener with the noise series compared to the unmodified recording (0% added noise).  At some level of added noise, all or most listeners will hear a difference, and at some lower level few or no listeners will hear a difference.  The % of listeners who hear a difference for each level of added noise is important.  This way you can get quantitative data for what is essentially a Yes-No test.  I can imagine a 2-dimensional graph as the result.  The X axis will show the % added noise, and the Y axis will show the % of listeners who hear a difference.  With the right levels of added noise, there ought to be a linear relationship between % added noise and the % of listeners who can hear it.

That audibility curve of positive control tests defines the real sensitivity of the A-B box.  Hopefully the results of testing two of Frank’s amps will fall within the range in which the positive control tests show that listeners can hear differences.  But it is also possible that such a test may require greater sensitivity than human listeners can deliver with the A-B box.  I don’t know the answer now.

My idea of % noise added to a clean musical passage, is just one untested idea off the top of my head.  Does anyone have any other ideas for positive control tests that can be used to calibrate the sensitivity of the A-B test?

Tone Depth

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Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #32 on: 26 Mar 2012, 04:48 pm »
I love to see the continued innovation of each of your lines! Congrats on another winner.

Hi Art,

No price on an upgrade yet.  It will be extensive.  New audio boards, each with six regulated power supplies built in, new ground plane boards, new output devices, and a ton of rewiring.  I will announce this when we have actually figured out the labor time to do it.

As of now, the price for the new Synergy 450 amp will be $1995 (black faceplate).  Other prices to be determined.

Frank

bakufu

Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #33 on: 26 Mar 2012, 06:24 pm »
> In an A-B test of whether two different devices sound different, it is important to limit the listeners’ responses to "Yes I hear a difference" or "No I don't".  Leave preference out.  Obviously, you cannot have a preference if you can't hear a difference.

i'm not sure i believe this.  perceptual differences which exist below the conscious threshold, or beyond the ability of the subject to report even if they are perceived, can matter.

as music-listener (rather than an equipment-tester) the two dimensions which concern me are:  (i) attentiveness to the music (involvement, immersion), the absence of which is experienced as boredom (distraction, avoidance), and (ii) absence of "listening fatigue" over a normal stretch of time (2-3 hours, about the length of a three-act opera).


rollo

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Re: Does the act of A-B testing influence the sound?
« Reply #34 on: 26 Mar 2012, 06:59 pm »
    Yes it does IMO one needs to do A-B-A then B-A-B. It is when it is out that shows the biggest differences.

charles