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You don't need 200 watts to drive them especially if crossing over to a sub. 50-150 clean wpc should be plenty.The Peridot and RC4 are quite old designs; I would look at Floorstanding or regular versions of the Verita or Tempesta if your budget allows.Also I wouldn't use something with a built in subwoofer for home theater simply because usually the receiver directs all of the bass into your LFE channel, I don't believe Rick has designed any yet.In my system my LCR is three MF7s
The rear speakers don't need to exactly match the front anyway even a SA2 could be used for the rear. I know Rick has probably not designed a dipole but I dont think it that much of a stretch for Rick to do one. I would leave Rick to comment on this.
The Verita and Tempesta are around 83-84db. That is even less sensitive than the RC4 and Peridot.
Rick has the most conservative sens. measurements I have ever seen. ... So, when comparing his models, add 3-4 db/w to compare them to other speakers' ratings. I think any of his models could comfortably work for the amps and uses you describe.
Is the home theater system for only movies or for 5-channel music listening too? If it's the former, then I wouldn't worry about timbre matching. Something like 80% of surround data comes through the front 3. I have cheapo AV123 surrounds and they sound fine. They're nowhere near as refined sounding as my MF7s but that doesn't matter too much, for movies. I think an interesting dipole surround might be 2 aura 5" woofers, one on each side, but I am not sure what tweeter would work well. Maybe the SB dimple dome. He's used the RAAL with this woofer as well.
I'll add that for a conventional speaker to be a true 90db there are sacrifices to be made...My approach has always been to rate the speaker accurately and not mislead customers.The Peridot and RC4 are older designs but still compete very well. I do have some ideas for updating them and would be happy to design something custom for you. There are some new ribbons available from Fountek that offer a step up as well as going to a RAAL tweeter. Accuton and Scan-Speak Illuminator mids are other options. I also have a new 8" which outperforms the Seas woofers (both Excel and the L22); in fact, a lower cost version of it is now being used in a $8K/pr. speaker that I saw you mention on another site.As far as the center channel the Seas co-ax is a good option. I like this for a low profile center that provides wide coverage. Much better than a 5" MTM laying horizontally. There are many options for woofers flanking the co-ax depending on what cabinet height and / or width you need.Active is certainly an option provided you use a good DSP crossover like the DEQX. Not much extra sensitivity will be added though if that's your main reason for doing it. If you're looking for higher sensitivity then doubling up on woofers with a MTM upper section is the best way to do that. Even better is a CBT array.
Firstly Rick, thank you for taking the time to reply.Yes I have seen how some manufacturers "measure" sensitivity. If you feel a simple 50-100W AVR (like the Arcam 400) can drive your speakers it is enough for me. You know your speakers best.About a custom design...hey I am not made of money besides our Rupees convert rather poorly into Dollars (50:1) so before we discuss this I'd like to know what cost this would entail. I have emailed you so you can reply via email if this is confidential. Before I go shopping for something I like to know if I can affrod it.If you however you are updating the Peridot or RC4 (I dont need the sub) I would be glad to be your first customer. Your reputation is enough for me to know that any update would only be a step up.I am open to all woofers. Brands dont mean much to me however I do love the sexiness of the Excel drivers. I called them Sex-sell drivers. LOL. I would be happy to consider the 8" woofer (along side the Excel mid and new Fountek) for the living room tower for example and maybe look at the Tempesta Extreme (either in it's 2 box avatar or a single tower-box) for the bedroom tower. I dont remember which speaker I refered to though I have discussed everything from JBL's 4312E to Sonus Faber's Liuto to Salk's Soundscape. Talking of which the SF Liutos produce good bass for a single 8".Which SEAS Co-ax are you refering to. I am told the Excel Coax is a headache to work with and the 4.5" Prestige will have limited SPL capability (even if XOed at say 300Hz) given it's low sensitivity, small size and limited power handling. The only other is the 6" used i the Loki. Will this be a sonic match for a speaker with a Excel mid (RC4 or Peridot)? Talking about Excel mids, given that there are new Founteks on the horizon, would moving to the 16cm Excel mid (in the Peridot) buy anything? The Fountek CD2.0 can be XOed lower than the CD3.0.Why do we need a DSPed crossover like the DEQX wont a simpler Marchand or Behringer 2310 work? The eco option for the DEQX could be a Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive?? The only reasons for the crossover were (a) this way the power amp driving the Mid-hf does not have to reproduce bass and vice-versa and (b) often the large inductors used in the crossover (both for LP of the woofer and the HP for the mid) rob a speaker of it's dynamics and sometimes drop sensitivity 1db or so.I have used MTMs and I find that the radiation pattern of an MT is more condusive to a larger sweet spot. This would be especially true in the Living room. Do you also find this to be the case?Ha the CBT. Nice idea but very low on WAF. In India where Bose is considered the holy grail of speakers (you have arrived if you have a Bose acoustimass in your living room and a Mercedes Benz in your garage) having to explain my towers is hard enough. If I built CBTs they'll lock me up and throw away the key.For now lets look at 'normal' speakers, what do you think of these?Living room:Front: Peridot clone using the new 8", a Excel Mid and Fountek Ribbon Center: Loki Coax or Excel Coax flanked by same size woofers. This should make a center about 7-8" tall. 7" for the C16, 8" for the T18.Rear: SA-2 or S6 but using 2 Fountek CD3.0Bedroom: Tempesta Extreme (what do you think of the ScanSpeak D3004/664000 aka Be compared to the RAAL used?)Rear: SA-2 or S6 but using 2 Fountek CD3.0 (depending on what's left in the budget)BTW Rick, I am ok with delivery as late as September 2012. That's when I will be ready to build boxes anyway. Right now I am trying to lock down the look, size, design, and costs. Also sometimes these things take time. Edit: I can salvage a pair of 9900 tweeters for the Living room tower if you feel that the center channel would mate better with a dome tweeter than a ribbon.
I would suggest that you first establish a budget range then the specific driver combinations can be decided. As far as the crossover for it or the Excel version I don't see any issues - not sure where you're getting your information on that.The DSP based active crossovers are much more flexible (slopes,points,response shaping) and that's why I prefer them over standard analog crossovers. Some can be tailored a little (like the Marchand) but if you want to make changes down the road then it's more difficult.Not all MTM's are the same and the crossover can be adjusted to give a wider vertical coverage (assuming the chosen drivers will allow that). If you have an aversion to a MTM then there are certainly plenty of MT options.
Budget without cabinets: $2500-3000 per pair for the bedroom tower, $1500 per pair for the living room tower, $800 for center, $800 per pair for rear. Total for 2 pair Towers, 1 center and 3 pair rears: $7500-8000 for all parts sans cabinets. Driver combinations: Just thinking aloudLiving room (7 channels)Front: Floor standing using 2 x 8", Excel 5" Mid and Fountek Ribbon Center: Coax flanked by same size woofers or anything else as low profile (aka WAFed) as possible.Rear: dipole SA-2 or S6 like Martin Logan's FX2Bedroom: (4 channels)Front: Tempesta Extreme Rear: dipole version of SA-2 or S6 using 2 tweetershttp://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/em-fx2.phpMultiple posts on diyaudio warned about using the Excel C16 passive. I am aware that my knowledge, experience and wisdom is very limited so depend on those who are better than me and willing to share (like here on audiocircle and on diyaudio).see post 37 by 6L6 herehttp://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/186664-new-seas-coax-4.html#post2690232see post 70 and 74 by blakkshepeaudio herehttp://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/5397-audiophile-coaxial-drivers-7.htmlhttp://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/5397-audiophile-coaxial-drivers-8.htmlSure DSP crossovers can be tailoured but can all that processing be good? I was thinking of either the DCX2496 or Marchands XM46SB. The later is a PLLXO so can be tucked away once set. The reason I thought of Marchand was that I figured you already have a passive crossover in the speaker so you already know the crossover frequency and slope you are crossing the drivers at all we need to do is implement the same at line level. An active crossover like the 2496 leaves room for too much tinkering and too little listening to music.Yes small MTMs where the woofers are 4-5" have good dispersion. I guess both the MTMs I used were wide using 7-8" woofers but I just feel safer with the MT. It is stupid, I know, but we old men are sorta set in our ways.
Honestly I think the ML speaker is a poor design. I tend to prefer monopoles for the surrounds. With the implementation of the active crossover you need a unit capable of some response shaping which isn't possible with a line level crossover. If the crossover is a 3-way it makes more sense just to go ahead and tri-amp with a totally active system. One option for the center channel is to go with a small mid and neo tweeter. This keeps the height minimal and allows very good horizontal coverage.
Fair enough. Let's go monopole for the rears but can we make the box really shallow like say Triangle and Dali do? WAF is important.http://www.triangle-fr.com/en/esprit/heyda/http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/IKON-ON-WALL-MK2.aspx
Fair enough. Let's go monopole for the rears but can we make the box really shallow like say Triangle and Dali do? WAF is important.http://www.triangle-fr.com/en/esprit/heyda/http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/IKON-ON-WALL-MK2.aspxI can't go fully active as the racks have no room for multiple power amps. It might then be better to just bi-wire the towers using sperate power amps for the bass and mid-hf. In the bedroom system for example I was looking to use 4 channels from a Arcam AVR to drive the front bass and mid-hf.I have never built a HT speaker (rear or center) before. All I know is that the center speaker has to be very close sonically to the front speakers. This makes sense. It also makes sense to have the drivers in a vertical array or coaxial. Again not having any experience with either W-MT-W or W-C-W combinations I can only rely on your suggestions.
Making a more shallow surround is no problem and I can tweak the crossover for placement near the wall. To make sure the L/C/R matches I like to decide on the center first then choose a L/R combination that will blend well.
