Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig

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navin

Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« on: 10 Mar 2012, 07:07 am »
I used to DIY speaker when I had time but today I don't so I figured buyinng a ready to build kit would save me all the design time yet give me something unique, as well as good VFM, and the satisfaction of building.

I am looking at 2 systems. a 7.1 system for the living room and a 4.1 system for the bedroom. The living room system will be 30% music and 70% DVD/Broadcast TV and the bedroom system will be 70% music and 30% DVD/Boradcast TV.

The Living-dining room is where we entertain. It is about 550 sq. ft. or about 5000 cu. ft. The system here needs to fun, capable of going loud, but does not need to be the last word in accuracy. The dining area need not have direct sound. A Rhythmik's DS1500 CI kit will reproduce the ".1" bass. The Amplifier will be a NAD T955 power amp and a NAD 748 AVR. 4 channels of the NAD 955 will drive the front speakers. The 5th channel of the T955 power amplifier will drive the center.  The NAD 748 AVR  will be used for the rear speakers.

My choice for the Living room was the Peridot (front), Sardonyx (center) and 2 pairs of shallow S6 (rear).

The Bedroom is where we listen to music and ccasionally watch movies. It is about 270 sq. ft or about 2500 cu. ft. For the sub-woofer a Rhythmik DS1200 CI will be used as space is limited. The Amplifier will be an Arcam AVR 400. This AVR is designed so that 2 of the rear power amplifier channels can be used to drive the front channels in "bi-amp" mode.

Our music collection itself is broken up about like this...
50% old pop and classic rock (everything from ABBA to AC/DC, Zappa to ZZ top)
20% Jazz (Dizzy, Etta, Miles, Mingus, etc..)
20% Western classical (Bach, Chopin, Mozart, etc..)
10% world music (Trilok Gurtu, Beuna Vista Social club et. al.)

For the bedroom I thought of the RC4 (without the Peerless sub-woofer and plate amplifier) and a pair of S6 (rear).

I have emailed Rick but then I figured he might not have time to answer each person's individual questions especially questions that come all the way from India.  :wink:

So maybe the Selah experts here can help me.

I noticed that the speakers I had selected have a sensitivity of only 86db or so. Given that I do not have room for big 200W power amps does Selah have any designs with higher sensitivity?

One idea came to mind is to perhaps ask Rick to replace the 15cm SEAS W15CY001 with the 4 ohm version of the W16NX001 but I assume using the Fountek CD3.0 ribbon tweeter nessiciates using a small mid hence changing the mid to 16cm might mean you might have to use the Fountek CD2.0 instead of the CD3.0.

Another idea was that since in both the Peridot and RC4, the LF section and the Mid-HF sections will have seperate power amplifiers I could bi-amp if I had the appropriate electronic crossover (I am sure Rick's passive crossovers have a lot of driver correction/baffle step compensation etc..). This might further improve sensitvity and damping.

Another unrelated thought was to maybe use 2 Fountek CD3.0 tweeters in the S6 and shape the S6 like Martin Logan's Electromotion FX2. I like the sleek flush look this design offers. see link http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/em-fx2.php

kip_

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #1 on: 10 Mar 2012, 11:23 am »
Hi Navin,

Rick has a few designs in the 88-89db range but most of his sensitivity ratings are in the 84-85db range. They seem to be conservative by 3-4db compared to other manufacturers. You don't need 200 watts to drive them especially if crossing over to a sub. 50-150 clean wpc should be plenty.

The Peridot and RC4 are quite old designs; I would look at Floorstanding or regular versions of the Verita or Tempesta if your budget allows. These can be built in the Madisound MD-38 cabinet instead of the custom cabinets the Peridot takes. Better, newer drivers should equal more detail and dynamics. Also I wouldn't use something with a built in subwoofer for home theater simply because usually the receiver directs all of the bass into your LFE channel, so really deep bass seems kind of wasteful. As far as dipole surrounds, I don't believe Rick has designed any yet.

In my system my LCR is three MF7s, these also work really well for surrounds because they image exceptionally well both vertically and horizontally - they're a coax design.

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #2 on: 10 Mar 2012, 01:16 pm »
You don't need 200 watts to drive them especially if crossing over to a sub. 50-150 clean wpc should be plenty.

The Peridot and RC4 are quite old designs; I would look at Floorstanding or regular versions of the Verita or Tempesta if your budget allows.

Also I wouldn't use something with a built in subwoofer for home theater simply because usually the receiver directs all of the bass into your LFE channel,

I don't believe Rick has designed any yet.

In my system my LCR is three MF7s

Thanks Kip,

In the living room I am driving the Front using 4 channels of the NAD T955. The amp is rated at 100W x 5.
http://nadelectronics.com/products/home-theatre-amplifiers/T-955-Five-Channel-Power-Amplifier

The rear will be driven using a NAD 748
http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers/T-748-A/V-Surround-Sound-Receiver

In the bedroom I am driving the Front using 4 channels of the Arcam AVR400. This AVR is rated at 90W x 7 channels.
http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,fmj,av-amplifiers,AVR400.htm

The Verita and Tempesta are around 83-84db. That is even less sensitive than the RC4 and Peridot. For the Bedroom maybe a dual woofer (I think Rick did this and called it the Extreme) version of the Tempesta would be good (same driver complement as the Magnifico) for the Front speakers. This should push sensitivity up about 3-4db to 88db. Also what I would do is direct the port downward to couple the bass with the floor. BTW I feel using the Verita for the rear is a bit too much. Question also is how will the RAAL tweeter work with a simple Arcam AVR?

The rear speakers don't need to exactly match the front anyway even a SA2 could be used for the rear. I know Rick has probably not designed a dipole but I dont think it that much of a stretch for Rick to do one. I would leave Rick to comment on this.

I always intended to get the RC4 without the Peerless subwoofer and plate amp.

The Seas L22RN4X Prestige woofers (I assume are) used in the Peridot produce more bass than the Excel woofers used in the RC4 and this is why I selected the Peridot for the livig room (larger room) over the (subwoofer less) RC4. For a more sensitive Peridot the L22RNX version could be used.

I am sorta familiar with the MF7 (not as the MF7 but as the Loki). Coaxial drivers have always intersted me. I was once contemplating designing a W-C-W (woofer-Coax-woofer) using the Seas 4.5" coax see link. http://seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/L12RE_XFC_AppNote.pdf

It was just that the SPL capabilities of this driver was limited (small diaphram, low sensitvity).

I'm told The SEAS 16cm EXCEL Coax is supposed to be difficult to tame.

Other coax I looked at were commercial speakers like the Tannoy Definition DC8T and 8T and KEF R900.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2012, 02:49 pm by navin »

kip_

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #3 on: 10 Mar 2012, 02:33 pm »

The rear speakers don't need to exactly match the front anyway even a SA2 could be used for the rear. I know Rick has probably not designed a dipole but I dont think it that much of a stretch for Rick to do one. I would leave Rick to comment on this.
I have sealed SA-2s in my 2 channel system. They're a bit large for surrounds but they sound fantastic with tubes. Haven't tried them in my larger (17x24) great room

jonbee

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #4 on: 10 Mar 2012, 04:40 pm »
The Verita and Tempesta are around 83-84db. That is even less sensitive than the RC4 and Peridot.
Rick has the most conservative sens. measurements I have ever seen. My Tempestas are notably louder than my 87db/w rated Volent VL-2, and very close to what my 89db/w rated VMPS RM30s were. These observations are based on several direct comparisons in my main system.
Speaker makers are famous for overrating their sens. Stereophile has often commented on this. Rick plays it straight. So, when comparing his models, add 3-4 db/w to compare them to other speakers' ratings. I think any of his models could comfortably work for the amps and uses you describe.

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #5 on: 10 Mar 2012, 05:03 pm »
Rick has the most conservative sens. measurements I have ever seen. ... So, when comparing his models, add 3-4 db/w to compare them to other speakers' ratings. I think any of his models could comfortably work for the amps and uses you describe.

Thanks jonbee,

I dont know if Rick reads this forum. I have seen him respond on some threads.

Just to give everyone here a frame of reference my new speakers will replace some older ones.

My older bedroom system was a 4 DV12 (Mike Dzurko's Audio Concepts) in 2 seperate bass sections mated to a Mid-HF section which used the 18W8546 and 9900 (bought when I was in Denmark and Germany). This system was built in 1995 along with a 18W8546/9500 MT. It replaced a pair of JBL 2245 (B460 bass bins) and MTMs using the Focal 8N515 and Morel MDT33 (purchased from Dennis Oullet at Solen in 1987). Prior to these (pre internet days) I had a 3 way using 2 Focal 10N515 in push pull topped by a Focal 7N515-T120 (this was a Focal design I think published by Madisound or A&S Speakers I forget which) and another 3 way (Theil 3.5 clone) using the Dynaudio 24W100, D52af and D21af purchased from Just Speakers and A&S Speakers (I think both of these companies are not active today). The first speaker I owned was the Polk Audio SDA1B (I replaced the 6" midbasses with Peerless TP165R) which I sold and got the Klipsch Forte II. Somewhere in between for a short while I had the Dynaudio Gemini supported by a pair 3 chambered 4th order bandpass subs using Peerless 831727 subs.

I have sorta promised my wife that these 2 speaker systems (hopefully from Selah) will be the last speaker systems we will buy/build. Like many wives she does sometimes complain and my reply is "Honey, it's either these or a mistress". LOL.

In fact for the first time I wont be building the speakers in my apartment. I have enlisted the use the labratory/workshop of a local publication whose only request is to review the speakers when they are done. They address the market for exotic high end boys toys and mens fashion (sorta like GQ does in the western world). I'd be more than happy to put Selah's contact details if and when this happens (if Rick approves). I am not part of the audio industry so it's no skin of my nose. If a great guy (I dont know RIck but everyone here says he is) like Rick benefits it's cool. Nice guys should finish first sometimes.

kip_

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #6 on: 10 Mar 2012, 06:23 pm »
Is the home theater system for only movies or for 5-channel music listening too? If it's the former, then I wouldn't worry about timbre matching. Something like 80% of surround data comes through the front 3. I have cheapo AV123 surrounds and they sound fine. They're nowhere near as refined sounding as my MF7s but that doesn't matter too much, for movies. I think an interesting dipole surround might be 2 aura 5" woofers, one on each side, but I am not sure what tweeter would work well. Maybe the SB dimple dome. He's used the RAAL with this woofer as well.

jonbee

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #7 on: 10 Mar 2012, 06:27 pm »
You've certainly been exposed to a lot of great drivers. The experience of most of Rick's customers is that he is expert at blending high end drivers into a sonic whole. Certainly my Tempestas are as seamless as any multi-way system I've ever heard.
As I've written here, I wanted the Ts to be my last main speaker when I took the leap of faith and ordered them, and yes, my wife has a say in that too. Needless to say I'm thrilled that my ambitious desires have been met. After 10 months and well over a thousand hours of listening I like them better all the time. Each improvement in the ancillaries shows me how much more potential there is in the speakers as well. Our choice of veneers and stains makes my wife very happy too.
As to the particulars of your implementation, I would email Rick or call him about it. He knows the ins and outs of his designs way better than we amateurs.

Rick Craig

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Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #8 on: 10 Mar 2012, 06:59 pm »
Navin- many things to cover here - sorry for my late reply.

 As far as sensitivity I think Jonbee already covered that pretty well. I'll add that for a conventional speaker to be a true 90db there are sacrifices to be made. That can include really large cabinets, woofers with limited excursion, drivers with light cones that suffer breakup, very expensive magnet assemblies, etc.
My approach has always been to rate the speaker accurately and not mislead customers.

The Peridot and RC4 are older designs but still compete very well. I do have some ideas for updating them and would be happy to design something custom for you. There are some new ribbons available from Fountek that offer a step up as well as going to a RAAL tweeter. Accuton and Scan-Speak Illuminator mids are other options. I also have a new 8" which outperforms the Seas woofers (both Excel and the L22); in fact, a lower cost version of it is now being used in a $8K/pr. speaker that I saw you mention on another site.

As far as the center channel the Seas co-ax is a good option. I like this for a low profile center that provides wide coverage. Much better than a 5" MTM laying horizontally. There are many options for woofers flanking the co-ax depending on what cabinet height and / or width you need.

Active is certainly an option provided you use a good DSP crossover like the DEQX. Not much extra sensitivity will be added though if that's your main reason for doing it. If you're looking for higher sensitivity then doubling up on woofers with a MTM upper section is the best way to do that. Even better is a CBT array.

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #9 on: 11 Mar 2012, 03:17 am »
Is the home theater system for only movies or for 5-channel music listening too? If it's the former, then I wouldn't worry about timbre matching. Something like 80% of surround data comes through the front 3. I have cheapo AV123 surrounds and they sound fine. They're nowhere near as refined sounding as my MF7s but that doesn't matter too much, for movies. I think an interesting dipole surround might be 2 aura 5" woofers, one on each side, but I am not sure what tweeter would work well. Maybe the SB dimple dome. He's used the RAAL with this woofer as well.

I have never heard music in 5 channel mode. Are you refering to the martix mixing some AVRs do? I do intend to get some music videos of my favourite bands and I assume these will have a 5.1 soundtrack (like DVDs do). So yes the rears will be used for 5.1 movies as well as music - mostly for movies though.

My idea was to sneak a slim dipole (like Electromotion's FX2 or Focal's Chorus 800SR) into the room. My is not even aware these are on the cards. The 2 big towers (or in this case 4 big towers - bedroom and living room) are what's got her attention for now. LOL. Mean ol' me.

Ideas of course are welcome IF they are qualified by the BIG man himself (aka Rick Craig).

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #10 on: 11 Mar 2012, 03:58 am »
I'll add that for a conventional speaker to be a true 90db there are sacrifices to be made...My approach has always been to rate the speaker accurately and not mislead customers.

The Peridot and RC4 are older designs but still compete very well. I do have some ideas for updating them and would be happy to design something custom for you. There are some new ribbons available from Fountek that offer a step up as well as going to a RAAL tweeter. Accuton and Scan-Speak Illuminator mids are other options. I also have a new 8" which outperforms the Seas woofers (both Excel and the L22); in fact, a lower cost version of it is now being used in a $8K/pr. speaker that I saw you mention on another site.

As far as the center channel the Seas co-ax is a good option. I like this for a low profile center that provides wide coverage. Much better than a 5" MTM laying horizontally. There are many options for woofers flanking the co-ax depending on what cabinet height and / or width you need.

Active is certainly an option provided you use a good DSP crossover like the DEQX. Not much extra sensitivity will be added though if that's your main reason for doing it. If you're looking for higher sensitivity then doubling up on woofers with a MTM upper section is the best way to do that. Even better is a CBT array.

Firstly Rick, thank you for taking the time to reply.

Yes I have seen how some manufacturers "measure" sensitivity. If you feel a simple 50-100W AVR (like the Arcam 400) can drive your speakers it is enough for me. You know your speakers best.

About a custom design...hey I am not made of money besides our Rupees convert rather poorly into Dollars (50:1) so before we discuss this I'd like to know what cost this would entail. I have emailed you so you can reply via email if this is confidential. Before I go shopping for something I like to know if I can affrod it.

If you however you are updating the Peridot or RC4 (I dont need the sub) I would be glad to be your first customer. Your reputation is enough for me to know that any update would only be a step up.

I am open to all woofers. Brands dont mean much to me however I do love the sexiness of the Excel drivers. I called them Sex-sell drivers. LOL. I would be happy to consider the 8" woofer (along side the Excel mid and new Fountek) for the living room tower for example and maybe look at the Tempesta Extreme (either in it's 2 box avatar or a single tower-box) for the bedroom tower. I dont remember which speaker I refered to though I have discussed everything from JBL's 4312E to Sonus Faber's Liuto to Salk's Soundscape. :wink: Talking of which the SF Liutos produce good bass for a single 8".

Which SEAS Co-ax are you refering to. I am told the Excel Coax is a headache to work with and the 4.5" Prestige will have limited SPL capability (even if XOed at say 300Hz) given it's low sensitivity, small size and limited power handling. The only other is the 6" used i the Loki. Will this be a sonic match for a speaker with a Excel mid (RC4 or Peridot)? Talking about Excel mids, given that there are new Founteks on the horizon, would moving to the 16cm Excel mid (in the Peridot) buy anything? The Fountek CD2.0 can be XOed lower than the CD3.0.

Why do we need a DSPed crossover like the DEQX wont a simpler Marchand or Behringer 2310 work? The eco option for the DEQX could be a Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive?? The only reasons for the crossover were (a) this way the power amp driving the Mid-hf does not have to reproduce bass and vice-versa and (b) often the large inductors used in the crossover (both for LP of the woofer and the HP for the mid) rob a speaker of it's dynamics and sometimes drop sensitivity 1db or so.

I have used MTMs and I find that the radiation pattern of an MT is more condusive to a larger sweet spot. This would be especially true in the Living room. Do you also find this to be the case?

Ha the CBT. Nice idea but very low on WAF. In India where Bose is considered the holy grail of speakers (you have arrived if you have a Bose acoustimass in your living room and a Mercedes Benz in your garage) having to explain my towers is hard enough. If I built CBTs they'll lock me up and throw away the key.

For now lets look at 'normal' speakers, what do you think of these?
Living room:
Front: Peridot clone using the new 8", a Excel Mid and Fountek Ribbon
Center: Loki Coax or Excel Coax flanked by same size woofers. This should make a center about 7-8" tall. 7" for the C16, 8" for the T18.
Rear: SA-2 or S6 but using 2 Fountek CD3.0

Bedroom: Tempesta Extreme (what do you think of the ScanSpeak D3004/664000 aka Be compared to the RAAL used?)
Rear: SA-2 or S6 but using 2 Fountek CD3.0 (depending on what's left in the budget)

BTW Rick, I am ok with delivery as late as September 2012. That's when I will be ready to build boxes anyway. Right now I am trying to lock down the look, size, design, and costs. Also sometimes these things take time.

Edit: I can salvage a pair of 9900 tweeters for the Living room tower if you feel that the center channel would mate better with a dome tweeter than a ribbon.
« Last Edit: 11 Mar 2012, 02:37 pm by navin »

Rick Craig

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Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #11 on: 12 Mar 2012, 03:02 am »
Firstly Rick, thank you for taking the time to reply.

Yes I have seen how some manufacturers "measure" sensitivity. If you feel a simple 50-100W AVR (like the Arcam 400) can drive your speakers it is enough for me. You know your speakers best.

About a custom design...hey I am not made of money besides our Rupees convert rather poorly into Dollars (50:1) so before we discuss this I'd like to know what cost this would entail. I have emailed you so you can reply via email if this is confidential. Before I go shopping for something I like to know if I can affrod it.

If you however you are updating the Peridot or RC4 (I dont need the sub) I would be glad to be your first customer. Your reputation is enough for me to know that any update would only be a step up.

I am open to all woofers. Brands dont mean much to me however I do love the sexiness of the Excel drivers. I called them Sex-sell drivers. LOL. I would be happy to consider the 8" woofer (along side the Excel mid and new Fountek) for the living room tower for example and maybe look at the Tempesta Extreme (either in it's 2 box avatar or a single tower-box) for the bedroom tower. I dont remember which speaker I refered to though I have discussed everything from JBL's 4312E to Sonus Faber's Liuto to Salk's Soundscape. :wink: Talking of which the SF Liutos produce good bass for a single 8".

Which SEAS Co-ax are you refering to. I am told the Excel Coax is a headache to work with and the 4.5" Prestige will have limited SPL capability (even if XOed at say 300Hz) given it's low sensitivity, small size and limited power handling. The only other is the 6" used i the Loki. Will this be a sonic match for a speaker with a Excel mid (RC4 or Peridot)? Talking about Excel mids, given that there are new Founteks on the horizon, would moving to the 16cm Excel mid (in the Peridot) buy anything? The Fountek CD2.0 can be XOed lower than the CD3.0.

Why do we need a DSPed crossover like the DEQX wont a simpler Marchand or Behringer 2310 work? The eco option for the DEQX could be a Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive?? The only reasons for the crossover were (a) this way the power amp driving the Mid-hf does not have to reproduce bass and vice-versa and (b) often the large inductors used in the crossover (both for LP of the woofer and the HP for the mid) rob a speaker of it's dynamics and sometimes drop sensitivity 1db or so.

I have used MTMs and I find that the radiation pattern of an MT is more condusive to a larger sweet spot. This would be especially true in the Living room. Do you also find this to be the case?

Ha the CBT. Nice idea but very low on WAF. In India where Bose is considered the holy grail of speakers (you have arrived if you have a Bose acoustimass in your living room and a Mercedes Benz in your garage) having to explain my towers is hard enough. If I built CBTs they'll lock me up and throw away the key.

For now lets look at 'normal' speakers, what do you think of these?
Living room:
Front: Peridot clone using the new 8", a Excel Mid and Fountek Ribbon
Center: Loki Coax or Excel Coax flanked by same size woofers. This should make a center about 7-8" tall. 7" for the C16, 8" for the T18.
Rear: SA-2 or S6 but using 2 Fountek CD3.0

Bedroom: Tempesta Extreme (what do you think of the ScanSpeak D3004/664000 aka Be compared to the RAAL used?)
Rear: SA-2 or S6 but using 2 Fountek CD3.0 (depending on what's left in the budget)

BTW Rick, I am ok with delivery as late as September 2012. That's when I will be ready to build boxes anyway. Right now I am trying to lock down the look, size, design, and costs. Also sometimes these things take time.

Edit: I can salvage a pair of 9900 tweeters for the Living room tower if you feel that the center channel would mate better with a dome tweeter than a ribbon.

I would suggest that you first establish a budget range then the specific driver combinations can be decided. The Prestige co-ax will work fine and is a good choice to be flanked by a pair of 5"-7" woofers. As far as the crossover for it or the Excel version I don't see any issues - not sure where you're getting your information on that.

The DSP based active crossovers are much more flexible (slopes,points,response shaping) and that's why I prefer them over standard analog crossovers. Some can be tailored a little (like the Marchand) but if you want to make changes down the road then it's more difficult.

Not all MTM's are the same and the crossover can be adjusted to give a wider vertical coverage (assuming the chosen drivers will allow that). If you have an aversion to a MTM then there are certainly plenty of MT options.

music lover

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Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #12 on: 12 Mar 2012, 03:37 am »
Rick's sensitivity ratings are conservative. I have a pair of Tempestas which are rated at 84-85 db.

Compared to my previous speakers, Merlin VSMs, which was rated at about 89db, the Tempestas play just as

loud at the same volume level set on my preamp. At that time I was using a Michael Yee 100 watt amp.

And now I have a Cary 200 watt amp.  So the speakers in my opinion, are fairly easy to drive. I hope this helps

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #13 on: 12 Mar 2012, 05:05 am »
I would suggest that you first establish a budget range then the specific driver combinations can be decided.

As far as the crossover for it or the Excel version I don't see any issues - not sure where you're getting your information on that.

The DSP based active crossovers are much more flexible (slopes,points,response shaping) and that's why I prefer them over standard analog crossovers. Some can be tailored a little (like the Marchand) but if you want to make changes down the road then it's more difficult.

Not all MTM's are the same and the crossover can be adjusted to give a wider vertical coverage (assuming the chosen drivers will allow that). If you have an aversion to a MTM then there are certainly plenty of MT options.

Budget without cabinets: $2500-3000 per pair for the bedroom tower, $1500 per pair for the living room tower, $800 for center, $800 per pair for rear. Total for 2 pair Towers, 1 center and 3 pair rears: $7500-8000 for all parts sans cabinets.

Driver combinations: Just thinking aloud
Living room (7 channels)
Front: Floor standing using 2 x 8", Excel 5" Mid and Fountek Ribbon
Center: Coax flanked by same size woofers or anything else as low profile (aka WAFed) as possible.
Rear: dipole SA-2 or S6 like Martin Logan's FX2

Bedroom: (4 channels)
Front: Tempesta Extreme
Rear: dipole version of SA-2 or S6 using 2 tweeters
http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/em-fx2.php

Multiple posts on diyaudio warned about using the Excel C16 passive. I am aware that my knowledge, experience and wisdom is very limited so depend on those who are better than me and willing to share (like here on audiocircle and on diyaudio).
see post 37 by 6L6 here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/186664-new-seas-coax-4.html#post2690232
see post 70  and 74 by blakkshepeaudio here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/5397-audiophile-coaxial-drivers-7.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/5397-audiophile-coaxial-drivers-8.html

Sure DSP crossovers can be tailoured but can all that processing be good? I was thinking of either the DCX2496 or Marchands XM46SB. The later is a PLLXO so can be tucked away once set. The reason I thought of Marchand was that I figured you already have a passive crossover in the speaker so you already know the crossover frequency and slope you are crossing the drivers at all we need to do is implement the same at line level. An active crossover like the 2496 leaves room for too much tinkering and too little listening to music.

Yes small MTMs where the woofers are 4-5" have good dispersion. I guess both the MTMs I used were wide using 7-8" woofers but I just feel safer with the MT. It is stupid, I know, but we old men are sorta set in our ways. :)
« Last Edit: 12 Mar 2012, 11:50 am by navin »

Rick Craig

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Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #14 on: 12 Mar 2012, 03:45 pm »
Budget without cabinets: $2500-3000 per pair for the bedroom tower, $1500 per pair for the living room tower, $800 for center, $800 per pair for rear. Total for 2 pair Towers, 1 center and 3 pair rears: $7500-8000 for all parts sans cabinets.

Driver combinations: Just thinking aloud
Living room (7 channels)
Front: Floor standing using 2 x 8", Excel 5" Mid and Fountek Ribbon
Center: Coax flanked by same size woofers or anything else as low profile (aka WAFed) as possible.
Rear: dipole SA-2 or S6 like Martin Logan's FX2

Bedroom: (4 channels)
Front: Tempesta Extreme
Rear: dipole version of SA-2 or S6 using 2 tweeters
http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/em-fx2.php

Multiple posts on diyaudio warned about using the Excel C16 passive. I am aware that my knowledge, experience and wisdom is very limited so depend on those who are better than me and willing to share (like here on audiocircle and on diyaudio).
see post 37 by 6L6 here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/186664-new-seas-coax-4.html#post2690232
see post 70  and 74 by blakkshepeaudio here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/5397-audiophile-coaxial-drivers-7.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/5397-audiophile-coaxial-drivers-8.html

Sure DSP crossovers can be tailoured but can all that processing be good? I was thinking of either the DCX2496 or Marchands XM46SB. The later is a PLLXO so can be tucked away once set. The reason I thought of Marchand was that I figured you already have a passive crossover in the speaker so you already know the crossover frequency and slope you are crossing the drivers at all we need to do is implement the same at line level. An active crossover like the 2496 leaves room for too much tinkering and too little listening to music.

Yes small MTMs where the woofers are 4-5" have good dispersion. I guess both the MTMs I used were wide using 7-8" woofers but I just feel safer with the MT. It is stupid, I know, but we old men are sorta set in our ways. :)

Honestly I think the ML speaker is a poor design. I tend to prefer monopoles for the surrounds. With the implementation of the active crossover you need a unit capable of some response shaping which isn't possible with a line level crossover. If the crossover is a 3-way it makes more sense just to go ahead and tri-amp with a totally active system. One option for the center channel is to go with a small mid and neo tweeter. This keeps the height minimal and allows very good horizontal coverage.

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #15 on: 12 Mar 2012, 04:40 pm »
Honestly I think the ML speaker is a poor design. I tend to prefer monopoles for the surrounds.

With the implementation of the active crossover you need a unit capable of some response shaping which isn't possible with a line level crossover. If the crossover is a 3-way it makes more sense just to go ahead and tri-amp with a totally active system.

One option for the center channel is to go with a small mid and neo tweeter. This keeps the height minimal and allows very good horizontal coverage.

Fair enough. Let's go monopole for the rears but can we make the box really shallow like say Triangle and Dali do? WAF is important.
http://www.triangle-fr.com/en/esprit/heyda/
http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/IKON-ON-WALL-MK2.aspx

I can't go fully active as the racks have no room for multiple power amps. It might then be better to just bi-wire the towers using sperate power amps for the bass and mid-hf. In the bedroom system for example I was looking to use 4 channels from a Arcam AVR to drive the front bass and mid-hf.

I have never built a HT speaker (rear or center) before. All I know is that the center speaker has to be very close sonically to the front speakers. This makes sense. It also makes sense to have the drivers in a vertical array or coaxial. Again not having any experience with either W-MT-W or W-C-W combinations I can only rely on your suggestions.

kip_

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #16 on: 12 Mar 2012, 05:08 pm »
Fair enough. Let's go monopole for the rears but can we make the box really shallow like say Triangle and Dali do? WAF is important.
http://www.triangle-fr.com/en/esprit/heyda/
http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/IKON-ON-WALL-MK2.aspx
Are you wall mounting or stand mounting the surrounds? If you're wall mounting the cabinet volume has to be x or the response of the driver changes. You could however increase the width and height to compensate. Also the crossover needs to be different for wall mounting due to the bass response.

Rick Craig

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Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #17 on: 12 Mar 2012, 05:51 pm »
Fair enough. Let's go monopole for the rears but can we make the box really shallow like say Triangle and Dali do? WAF is important.
http://www.triangle-fr.com/en/esprit/heyda/
http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/IKON-ON-WALL-MK2.aspx

I can't go fully active as the racks have no room for multiple power amps. It might then be better to just bi-wire the towers using sperate power amps for the bass and mid-hf. In the bedroom system for example I was looking to use 4 channels from a Arcam AVR to drive the front bass and mid-hf.

I have never built a HT speaker (rear or center) before. All I know is that the center speaker has to be very close sonically to the front speakers. This makes sense. It also makes sense to have the drivers in a vertical array or coaxial. Again not having any experience with either W-MT-W or W-C-W combinations I can only rely on your suggestions.

Making a more shallow surround is no problem and I can tweak the crossover for placement near the wall. To make sure the L/C/R matches  I like to decide on the center first then choose a L/R combination that will blend well.

pslate

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #18 on: 12 Mar 2012, 09:36 pm »
Just a quick thought. Rick is very talented, and will work with your ideas whatever your goals may be, but I would also be sure to ask him what his choices would be. That way all things align, drivers, crossovers, and cabinets. My feeling is that giving him a fairly free had to follow his preferences offers superlative results.

navin

Re: Looking at 2 systems from Selah / Rick Craig
« Reply #19 on: 13 Mar 2012, 03:51 am »
Making a more shallow surround is no problem and I can tweak the crossover for placement near the wall. To make sure the L/C/R matches  I like to decide on the center first then choose a L/R combination that will blend well.

1. Surrounds will wall mounted.
2. Yes I too believe that the center should be worked out first. From everything I know about HT (which is very very little) the front 3 speakers need to match.
3. I have emailed Rick a PDF of my apartment so he knows all the dimensions, placement locations etc.

As things stand I am expecting something like this.
Living room (7 channels)
Front: Floor standing using 2 x 8", Excel 5" Mid and Fountek Ribbon
Center: As low profile as possible. matching the front. Say about 8" high x 28" wide x 12" deep is this ok? Rick do you need more space for the center?
Rear: shallow SA-2 or S6

Bedroom: (4 channels)
Front: Tempesta Extreme or something similar
Rear: Shallow SA-2 or S6

Lastly, I know Rick is very talented. In fact I am playing with some other drivers but I want to have 2 world class systems I can listen to while I fool around and learn from my DIY experiments (this is a slow process as my time is very limited).

There are days when I like the brash dynamisim of a speaker like the Paradigm Signautre S8, on other days I like the laid back warmth of a Sonus Faber, and other days the cohesiveness of a Tannoy Coax (Definition series). I am hoping Rick's speakers can accomplish all of these. A tall order I know, especially given my budget. Over to you Rick *bowing down*.  :D
« Last Edit: 13 Mar 2012, 06:29 am by navin »