[nullspace]

Thanks for the update, Duke. Hope you had a wonderful holiday.

Regards,
John

[JICRO]

Hey Duke,

Any new developments on your kit project?

Cheers,

- Jim

[Duke]

Any new developments on your kit project?

I no longer think my kit would be unique: 

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion15-kit.html

So I'm debating whether to go ahead with it.  Looks like the concept is already being executed well, and at a very attractive price for a kit using high-end drivers and waveguides.

On the technical side, it looks like the kit (if I do it) would clock in around 99 dB.  So mine would arguably be a bit more tube friendly.  Enough to differentiate it? 

[nullspace]

Speaking for myself, I'm still 'In' for your kit. Me and my 7W amp think the +3db is definitely worth it.

Now, if you don't think the market for the kit is as promising as it once was, perhaps you can scale back your offering. Possibly offer the design (drivers & waveguide selection plus crossover schematic and a few notes on box design) in PDF format for a fee. I'd send you more than a couple bucks for that, today.

I'm not sure you are giving yourself enough credit, Duke. A kit with the Audiokinesis brand attached to it is surely a premium offering.

Regards,
John

[Duke]

Speaking for myself, I'm still 'In' for your kit. Me and my 7W amp think the +3db is definitely worth it.

Now, if you don't think the market for the kit is as promising as it once was, perhaps you can scale back your offering. Possibly offer the design (drivers & waveguide selection plus crossover schematic and a few notes on box design) in PDF format for a fee. I'd send you more than a couple bucks for that, today.

I'm not sure you are giving yourself enough credit, Duke. A kit with the Audiokinesis brand attached to it is surely a premium offering.

Regards,
John

Thanks, John.

Okay, the kit is moving ahead, and it's now 99 dB.  The manufacturer claims 99 dB for the woofer and that's usually based on peak instead of average SPL, but in this case I think it's justified as the response is fairly smooth up to 4 kHz (which is pretty good for a 15" woofer).    I listened to the kitspeaker next to a 4-ohm speaker known to be 97 dB efficient (based on T/S parameters and measurements), using a constant-voltage solid state amp, mono source, and just going back and forth between them with the balance control.  The kitspeaker was a bit louder.   So I think I'm safe claiming 99 dB.

The compression driver goes up to 20 kHz, so we have real top end extension.  Does it with a polymer diaphragm too, rather than metal.  I bought a case of the drivers so I can do matched pairs. 

The low end extension will of course be box-size-dependent (as well as room and amp dependent), and that's where builders will have a chance to maximize their bang for the buck by tailoring the box to their situation.   But the woofer's parameters are pretty good for low end extension, for a high-efficiency woofer.   Mid 30's is quite feasible. 

I'm definitely aiming at the low-powered tube amp market, so I'm keeping the impedance curve fairly benign, between 7 and 12 ohms north of the bass impedance peaks.   And the top end will be user-adjustable (tilt up or tilt down) via an external resistor in a cup. 

[roberts4152]

Hi Duke,

Hope all is well.  Been watching this thread closely as I decide my next speakers.  Any chance of an update on the kit -- price, drivers?  Thanks,

Rob

[Duke]

Doubt if you could find existing pre-built cabinets to fit 12 inch designs let alone 15 inchers.  But pre-cut flat panels could be a niche for an out of work cabinet builder.  With a day or two notice a pair of kits should be able to be provided.

Parts Express has trapezoidal knock-down enclosure kits, intended for prosound, that would work for a stand-mount version would be used with subs.   But I don't think anyone is offering a flat pack that would work for a large floor-stander. 

I've contacted a couple of woodworkers to gauge their interest in possibly offering a flat-pack, but no luck so far.  If you have someone in mind, shoot me an e-mail.

[RSG]

New kid on the block here at AC. I have been a long time Atma-Sphere owner (M-60's and MP-3) and have been looking at different options for upgrading my speaker situation. Ralph holds your speakers in very high regard and a little searching has brought me here (as well as your AK site). I have been looking at your speakers, especially the Jazz Modules. How would this kit compare to these speakers? I have been looking into upgrading crossover's on my Talon Khorus' but would be much more interested in building my own speakers, especially if they look/sound similar to your Jazz's.

Cheers,
RG

[Duke]

An update to this thread is long overdue...

Something that has drastically narrowed the opportunities for a commercially successful kit is the very solid entry of DIY Sound Group into the kit arena.  Baasically, this site offers (among other things) what appear to me to be very thoroughly engineered kit designs, and with less mark-up than you would expect to see from a commercial venture. 

In particular, for $812 per pair, you can get a very high quality high efficiency 15" two-way kit.  Here's the link:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion15-kit.html

Or you can go to PiSpeakers.com and get a very high quality high efficiency 15" two-way kit for $800 to $1450 per pair depending on driver options.  There's more markup in the PiSpeaker kits, but more experience with that type of speaker behind them as well.  Here's that link:

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/3/products_id/108\

I don't think I can offer any better bang-for-the-buck than either of these.  Neither one is tacking on very much markup, and the DIY Sound Group kit includes a pre-routed frount baffle.

The DIY Sound Group Fusion 15 kit is probably aimed more at the uber-home-theater market, and so is presumably designed for solid state amps (this is just a guess on my part - I don't know it for a fact).  The PiSpeakers kits are designed to work well with most tube amps, though they probably would work well with solid state also.   

So I haven't forotten about the kit, but I'm not really seeing that there's an unfilled niche either.

[nullspace]

Thanks for the update, Duke. Totally understand your thinking on this topic; I can imagine that it would be daunting to enter the market when people like Bill Waslo are publicly posting seemingly well-done crossovers for premium drivers. Your crossover-fu would be worth a premium, but it must be tough to compete with 'free'...

I'm glad to see you have been having such good success with your other projects. I'm sure your new project with Jim will be a winner.

Regards,
John

[brj]

Instead of a "better bang-for-the-buck" kit, why not just a better kit?

[Duke]

Instead of a "better bang-for-the-buck" kit, why not just a better kit?

Hmmm... okay, just thinking out loud here...

There are a couple of really good 15" woofers out there that come to mind:  The Supravox 400 EXC (uber expensive French field coil woofer) and the Acoustic Elegance TD15M.   If I were to do something involving either one, the woofer wouldn't be included in the kit because I wouldn't be able to buy them in sufficient quantity to get a discount, so the builder might as well buy them direct and save that much shipping cost & risk.

I'm interested in trying the SEOS 15 waveguide once it's available.  Imo the SEOS 12 is a bit on the small side for use with a 15" woofer, as it starts losing pattern control a bit higher up than I'm totally comfortable with for that application.   

Now I would expect the DIY Sound Group designers to be all over the SEOS 15 soon as it comes out, but I'm not sure the AE TD15M fits in with their focus, and it's extremely unlikely that the Supravox does.   

My current favorite compression driver isn't a perfect match for the entry angle of the SEOS waveguides, so I'd want to modify said entry angle to match the exit angle of the compression driver.   That would take a special tool, which I've already designed.

Last time I bought a pair of the Supravox woofers was a decade or so ago, back when they had a US distributor, and the pair set me back about 2.4 grand.   It's the best-sounding big woofer I've worked with, and I really like being able to dial in the Qts for best synergy with your amp and room.   Of course on top of the 2.4 grand in 2003-ish dollars, there's the additional expense of a regulated power supply for the electromagnet.  The AE TD15M is a screaming bargain in comparision at a mere 600 bucks or so per pair.   

So if I were to try to do a better kit, it would probably be woofers-not-included, but modified waveguide + 20 kHz compression driver + crossover + plans included.   

Realistically the AE woofer is a more likely candidate than the Supravox, but I wanted to mention the Supravox because that's the farthest I've been down the "better" road, in some ways at least. 

[nullspace]

Hi Duke,

They've already started putting out SEOS15 designs. Here's one from Bill using the TD15M: AE TD15M and SEOS15 (with DNA360). I'll leave it to you to judge what kind of job Bill did with the crossover.

That said, if you're still looking to judge market-size, I'd still buy what you're thinking of offering (modified waveguide + 20 kHz compression driver + crossover + plans included) because I think your design work is worth the premium. At the same time, I'll totally understand if you don't move forward -- I can't imagine the margins for you would be very much on something like that, and it's not like you don't have plenty of other projects that provide a bit more of a return for your efforts.

Regards,
John

[Duke]

Hi Duke,

They've already started putting out SEOS15 designs. Here's one from Bill using the TD15M: AE TD15M and SEOS15 (with DNA360). I'll leave it to you to judge what kind of job Bill did with the crossover.

That said, if you're still looking to judge market-size, I'd still buy what you're thinking of offering (modified waveguide + 20 kHz compression driver + crossover + plans included) because I think your design work is worth the premium. At the same time, I'll totally understand if you don't move forward -- I can't imagine the margins for you would be very much on something like that, and it's not like you don't have plenty of other projects that provide a bit more of a return for your efforts.

Regards,
John

Thanks for your understanding and encouragement, John!  And for the information... I had forgotten that the fiberglass SEOS 15 has been available for a while now; it's the less-expensive plastic version I was talking about, though maybe my timeline is off about that as well. 

I'd aim to keep the impedance curve from dipping as much as Bill describes in that thread - his dip isn't bad, but I'd be targeting tube amps more deliberately than he is. 

[jtwrace]

compression driver

Which one?

Realistically the AE woofer is a more likely candidate than the Supravox, but I wanted to mention the Supravox because that's the farthest I've been down the "better" road, in some ways at least. 

Maybe an option for some that would want the "best"?  Do a design for both. 

[rklein]

I, for one would be interested in seeing pricing for both the AE and the Supravox.

Thanks for even thinking about offering a kit! 

Regards,

Randy

[brj]

Thanks for continuing to consider it, Duke!

One other question... for those that have or plan to acquire an array of subs to cover the bottom end and thus might not need the mains to go so low, would a 12" version of the this concept lose anything other than that some bass?

Presumably the crossover point would move up, but the benefit is a smaller, less imposing cabinet.

[Duke]

Which one?

Sorry, still keeping that to myself.   Can't let the DIYers get the jump on me across the board!
 

Maybe an option for some that would want the "best"?  Do a design for both.

I, for one would be interested in seeing pricing for both the AE and the Supravox.

A quick cost/benefit analysis leans me towards the Acoustic Elegance version, as I'd have to make a much larger investment to develop the Supravox kit, and would probably sell fewer of them.  Since my markup would be based on the components I'd actually be selling, my profit would be the same for either kit. 

The AE woofer is $658/pair + shipping from Green Bay, Wisconson.

The Supravox is about $2300/pair (not as bad as I'd expected) + shipping from Laval, Quebec, Canada. 

A rough guesstimate for compression driver + modified waveguide + crossover + plans comes to $800/pair (with decent but not exotic crossover parts), out of which I'd make about $170.  If I let you guys assemble the crossover, you'd save maybe $60 and I'd make about $110.   In the latter case, my profit would all come off of the difference between dealer cost and retail on the compression driver.  That's a lot of work just to sell a compression driver at retail.  Maybe $800 would be the introductory price, after which I'd let it creep up.

[brj]

Thanks for continuing to consider it, Duke!

One other question... for those that have or plan to acquire an array of subs to cover the bottom end and thus might not need the mains to go so low, would a 12" version of the this concept lose anything other than that some bass?

Presumably the crossover point would move up, but the benefit is a smaller, less imposing cabinet.

Hmmm... after reading the other currently active thread, it sounds like the 12" implementation that I asked about might effectively be a kit version of the Jazz Module 2.0.  Still, it'd likely be potentially more interesting than the 15" version for those that have the bass covered with an array of subs, unless there is something else unique to the 15" implementation.  (And I don't discount the importance of where the crossover frequency is located relative to the sensitivity of human hearing.)

[Duke]

One other question... for those that have or plan to acquire an array of subs to cover the bottom end and thus might not need the mains to go so low, would a 12" version of the this concept lose anything other than that some bass?

Presumably the crossover point would move up, but the benefit is a smaller, less imposing cabinet.

The 15" kit would be adaptable to a smaller stand-mount cabinet, whereas a 12" stand-mount kit of comparable efficiency probably would not be adaptable to a floorstander (not enough bass even with the larger box). 

Hmmm... after reading the other currently active thread, it sounds like the 12" implementation that I asked about might effectively be a kit version of the Jazz Module 2.0.  Still, it'd likely be potentially more interesting than the 15" version for those that have the bass covered with an array of subs, unless there is something else unique to the 15" implementation.  (And I don't discount the importance of where the crossover frequency is located relative to the sensitivity of human hearing.)

The Jazz Module 2.0 will use a 10" woofer, and won't be available in kit form.  It'll have one or two other things going on that won't be offered in the kits. 

Here are a couple of very good 12" kits:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/alpha-series-kits/alpha12-kit.html

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/97, especially with the Definimax and B&C compression driver upgrade

Notice that the Definimax woofer is in both of those recommended kits.  That's the woofer I use in custom studio monitors.  It works in a floorstander or a stand-mount, but trades off efficiency along the way.