[Letitroll98]

I'm almost afraid to post this.  I was stumbling thru some old links on the MUG site and found this suggestion for aligning your Maggies from a post on the Asylum, MMG's in this case (see diagram below).  I had some time to goof off this weekend and I've been struggling to get a placement that completely works in this room.  So I gave it a try and as stated in the original post, the darn thing works!  Superb imaging, great depth and width, the sound is completely separate from the speakers.  I thought it would crush the highs, but no, brilliant treble, fantastic tone, very natural in every way.  I played the soundstage tracks from the Stereophile Test CD #3 and everything was in it's proper place, no weird phasiness or anything.  The only thing I noticed is that the placement is extraordinarily sensitive to alignment, I had to adjust micro inches to get a perfect left/right balance.  But once I did, it gets rid of that Maggie head in a vise feeling.  Overall I'm quite pleased so far, no FR measurements yet.

Sooo, anyone tried this?  Am I completely crazy and delusional?  Why would something like this work?  Note the MMG's are slightly modded with custom feet, no tiltback, raised 5 1/2", fuses bypassed.  It's a small room, 13.5x10, heavily treated with bass traps, diffusion, and wall mounted absorption.  The speakers are placed along the long wall according to the Cardas planar formula, 3.73' from the side walls and 4.94' from the front wall (if my memory is correct).   

[Rclark]

 Huh.  That's definitely something I would have loved to try with the stock MMG, but now, no point.

[*Scotty*]

Thats called a pair of headphones for those of you who have never seen a set before. It works better if you set right in the middle however.
Scotty

[JohnR]

I had to adjust micro inches to get a perfect left/right balance.  But once I did, it gets rid of that Maggie head in a vise feeling.

While I don't have these speakers, I suspect that what you've done is moved a good part of the treble energy to the reverberant field, hence no "head in a vice."

I'd be interested to hear how it fares with more extended listening

[josh358]

I've tried that and it works quite well, in fact, it's one of the better positions in my listening room, though not the best -- I'd say #3.

Now, if you want a *real* blast, try turning them so they're edge-on to you, e.g., in a "V" with you at the point. If it works (it does in some rooms, not others) you'll be amazed at and blown away by what happens.

[Davey]

I tried it as well.  It's an interesting presentation.

I think much depends upon the recordings used....how they were miked, whether ambient information is contained, etc, etc.

The typical contemporary horrible studio recordings that are a close-miked pan-potted mess will probably not demonstrate the capabilities of this type of configuration.

I have a few binaural recordings of a symphony orchestra.  Those sound terrific.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Chris Adams]

   

I'm definitely going to give this a try just to hear it. Thanks.

[Letitroll98]

Thanks for the replies, at least I'm not crazy, or at least not so much as to be involuntarily committed.  So far.

Thats called a pair of headphones for those of you who have never seen a set before. It works better if you set right in the middle however.
Scotty

No, it sounds terrible directly between the speakers, boomy bass and phasy treble.  I thought it might be as you stated, but it didn't work out that way.

Now, if you want a *real* blast, try turning them so they're edge-on to you, e.g., in a "V" with you at the point. If it works (it does in some rooms, not others) you'll be amazed at and blown away by what happens.

Funny, I was thinking of trying that very thing out.  The author of the original post adjusted his from directly paralleled to slightly tilted toward the front wall.  I ended up with (a guesstimate) 1 or 2 degrees tilted, almost by accident, but it sounded better.  So I wondered what the "on edge" sound might be and if it mattered much which edge, facing the front or rear walls. 

I tried it as well.  It's an interesting presentation.

I think much depends upon the recordings used....how they were miked, whether ambient information is contained, etc, etc.

The typical contemporary horrible studio recordings that are a close-miked pan-potted mess will probably not demonstrate the capabilities of this type of configuration.

I have a few binaural recordings of a symphony orchestra.  Those sound terrific.

Cheers,

Dave.

I haven't tried many bad recordings yet, Indigo Girls about the worst, but my experience so far is almost opposite.  A very naturally miked version of The Planets, Geoffrey Simon and the London, tended to sound a bit closed in with reduced width, but it's still early.

While I don't have these speakers, I suspect that what you've done is moved a good part of the treble energy to the reverberant field, hence no "head in a vice."

I'd be interested to hear how it fares with more extended listening

Yes, I agree.  I was surprised that I didn't lose more treble energy because of that.

[josh358]

Funny, I was thinking of trying that very thing out.  The author of the original post adjusted his from directly paralleled to slightly tilted toward the front wall.  I ended up with (a guesstimate) 1 or 2 degrees tilted, almost by accident, but it sounded better.  So I wondered what the "on edge" sound might be and if it mattered much which edge, facing the front or rear walls. 

I'd put the front (diaphragm side) of the speaker facing out. When you do this, you actually don't hear direct sound from the speaker anymore, since you're in the dipole null. Instead, the first arrival comes from a reflected "virtual speaker" that's beyond the physical wall. The second arrival comes from the front wall. This has the effect of making your room larger acoustically, and also increases the lateral spread to maybe 150 degrees without a hole in the middle. It's pretty amazing when it works, the closest I've experienced to being in a real acoustical space. And it seems to work about half the time, depending, I think, on room symmetry.

[josh358]

I tried it as well.  It's an interesting presentation.

I think much depends upon the recordings used....how they were miked, whether ambient information is contained, etc, etc.

The typical contemporary horrible studio recordings that are a close-miked pan-potted mess will probably not demonstrate the capabilities of this type of configuration.

I have a few binaural recordings of a symphony orchestra.  Those sound terrific.

One of the things I noticed was that when recordings were panned hard left or hard right, e.g., on old Beatles recordings, the sound stopped coming from the front and seemed instead to emanate from the side of the room, where the first reflection was.

[rw@cn]

I'd put the front (diaphragm side) of the speaker facing out. When you do this, you actually don't hear direct sound from the speaker anymore, since you're in the dipole null. Instead, the first arrival comes from a reflected "virtual speaker" that's beyond the physical wall. The second arrival comes from the front wall. This has the effect of making your room larger acoustically, and also increases the lateral spread to maybe 150 degrees without a hole in the middle. It's pretty amazing when it works, the closest I've experienced to being in a real acoustical space. And it seems to work about half the time, depending, I think, on room symmetry.

  Take this as a joke. It seems to me someone has been reading Dr. Bose's white paper. 

I know it isn't quite the same but the thought came to me and I couldn't let it pass unoticed.

[josh358]

It's *very* different from the "Bose effect," though, since you're hearing *only* the reflections. This makes the first reflection the initial source of the sound. It's as if you put a mirror on the wall and erected a barrier that blocked your direct view of the speaker -- you'd see only the speaker reflected in the mirror, seemingly on the far side of the wall.

Two remarkable effects of this: the room becomes, acoustically, much larger, and you lose much of the early "double acoustic" effect that is the main impediment to you-are-there realism in sound reproduction. From a psychoacoustic perspective, it removes early reflections, rather than adding or enhancing them.

[kevin360]

I think Josh said it perfectly.

It's almost spooky in its delivery of a 'live acoustic'.

---

Seriously near field is a bit spooky too. I swear that I keep hearing sounds coming from behind me. 

[medium jim]

I tried that setup with my old 1.6qr's and was watching a movie (stereo) and there was a scene where it was raining.  I swear I could feel the rain falling, high to low and all around me...it was creepy good.  I actually looked outside to see if it really was raining!

I went back to a more conventional setup at some point....

Jim

[ajayrav]

We have a specialty audio store in the Bay Area that uses the same alignment for their Maggies.  Stereo Unlimited in Walnut Creek has being doing this for as long as I can remember.  They also add a 'Supernal tweeter' that looks a lot like a Linaeum on their Maggies that kick them up a notch.

Cheers,
Ajay

[medium jim]

Ajay:

I've heard of people using 1.2ohm resistors to attenuate the HF, not adding tweeters to maggies.  Must be a bunch of old headbangers who have lost most of their upper frequency hearing, LOL
Jim

[josh358]

Someone on the Asylum -- can't remember whom at this point -- uses a Lineaeum tweeter on his MMG's.

[josh358]

Seriously near field is a bit spooky too. I swear that I keep hearing sounds coming from behind me. 

I used to hear that on a friend's KLH-9's all the time. Apparently it can also happen on the Quad 57's and other highly directional speakers. The brain is actually pretty lousy at using the HRTF to determine whether a sound is in front of or behind you. Often, speakers exhibit this problem when used in anechoic chambers. Apparently, we use room reflections as cues to help determine whether the sound is coming from the front or back.

[medium jim]

Josh:

It's called the Dopler Effect.

Jim

[ajayrav]

Jim,

Actually this is a very high-end shop with eclectic gear like Viva, Fosgate, Linn and MBL.  They have a bunch of turntables and a lot of tube-based amplification.  These guys don't look like headbangers to me...more chamber music folks  .  Their upgrades to the Maggies sound really good.  I'm assuming the tweeter add-on serves more of a supertweeter function with a dipole radiation to match the Maggies.

Ajay