Speaker placement sticky

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Delacroix

Speaker placement sticky
« on: 15 Feb 2012, 08:17 pm »
Given the recurring interest in placement from Von Schweikert owners, and the obvious difficulty pulling the various concerns together,  here's a sticky home that contains links to established approaches and some earlier threads from here on the VSA Circle specifically. This is also a place for new questions and experiences with various speaker placements.

The Master Set approach: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64320.0

The Sumiko Set up (seems close to or same as Master Set) http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?71762-Sumiko-setup

The Cardas Method: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring

There are discussions across the forum in various threads but I cannot seem to link these here, will post below.

Delacroix

Re: Speaker placement sticky
« Reply #1 on: 15 Feb 2012, 08:40 pm »
Discussions in the VSA Forum touching on placement of specific speakers are found in the following thread 

Speaker placement http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75835.0 

VR 35 related http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=96764.0 

VR33 related http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92641.0 

Adding subwoofers http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77485.0 

Delacroix

Re: Speaker placement sticky
« Reply #2 on: 26 Jan 2014, 05:35 pm »
Genesis Audio's Gary Koh provides a speaker set up process as a PDF on the company's site: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com

This is another one based on close listening to particular recordings rather than using measurements.

pre

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 18
Re: Speaker placement sticky
« Reply #3 on: 12 Mar 2014, 01:51 am »
Here one example tool set and approach with which you could try to  measure the  reality curves at your listening position in the room including all (nasty lively...) room reflections and finalize speaker positioning with listening female voice.

The measurement toolkit / USB sound card for PC :
Behringer usb sound card UCA202 / UCA222  review, measurements and comments:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.fi/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html

- Behringer USB drivers from Behringer UCA202 support page
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCA202.aspx
- set in WIN control panel the default tab (x)  for UCA202 sound device
- you may use mini headset for testing the signal  coming from UCA202 (just to hear the analog signal that USB driver works!)
- connect 5m  Toslink cable to UCA202 for measurement signal routing from PC to DAC / PRE
- Toslink cable offers galvanic isolation (eliminating hum etc.) and digital signal delivery from PC to DAC 
- The soundacard is FIRST calibrated  in REW preferences window, by using a loopback rca cable (from output to input of uca202)
- uca202 rew calibration is done without the mic and mic calibration file . Therefore the wording " using a loopback cable"
- make sure the Monitor switch on the UCA202  is clicked to OFF in soundcard calibration phase
Read more:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/wizardhelpv5/help_en-GB/html/gettingstarted.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/26169-uca-202-problems-solutions-calibration-rew-windows-7-more.html#ixzz2z6VyvqYA

https://www.google.fi/search?q=rew+calibration+uca202&oq=rew+calibration+uca202&aqs=chrome..69i57.11777j0j8&client=ubuntu-browser&sourceid=chrome&espv=2&es_sm=125&ie=UTF-8

The mic  for measurement PC:
- I selected the easy way with  USB mic: miniDSP UMIK-1
- UMIK-1 is precalibrated at the factory
- UMIK-1  is omni-directional mic  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone
 http://www.shure.co.uk/support_download/educational_content/microphones-basics/microphone_polar_patterns
- UMIK-1 set-up http://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/umik-1-setup-with-rew
- Connect the UMIK-1 to your computer using the supplied USB cable
=> use force when installing the usb cable to UMIK-1  and hear the click when seated properly at bottom
- UMIK-1 mic holder has 3/8"   thread, use manfrotto adapters etc. for attachment to a propper mic stand
- The differences in mics: http://realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm
- other calibrated mics from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/  (ask for premium versions)
- note that other than usb mics require phantom feed / mic preamp
- the mic stand: https://www.google.fi/search?q=microphone+stand+with+boom+rew+measurement&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=Pz0yU6rrGYWl4gTPn4G4Cw&ved=0CAUQ_AUoAA&biw=1350&bih=763&dpr=0.9#q=tripod+microphone+stand+with+boom+for+rew+measurement
- pointing the mic with universal joint (example): https://www.google.fi/search?q=konig+and+meyer+19695&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=SD8yU-rqMofs4wTj7oGoAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1350&bih=763&dpr=0.9

The REW part and to start with REW:
**************************************************************************************************
  be careful  and do not use too loud testing  volume levels   :nono:
  It will blow the speakers (especially the tweaters)  if volume is  too high
  https://cdn.tutsplus.com/audio/uploads/legacy/282_ear/approximatenoiselevels.jpg
  testing only with your own risk
**************************************************************************************************
- make measurements and create the measurement signals  from PC to sound system
- watch the videos first to get the idea of using REW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ial9y0ipNeU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4uSR3cUUSY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3mRsVge1oE
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rew%20room&sm=3
One other way to start with REW/Guide to Room EQ Wizard  http://polaraudio.blogspot.fi/2012/01/calibration.html
Use EW: http://realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm  - Room Measuring Series
(How To Setup a Listening Room  http://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm )

REW forum: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/
REW HELP: http://www.roomeqwizard.com/wizardhelpv5/help_en-GB/html/index.html

Speaker to Room Calibration Walkthrough
-  includes chapters about measuring with REW and other interesting topics
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/speaker-room-calibration-walkthrough-173/

I analyzed  the Master Set / Sumiko placement approach and measured the impact to frequencey curves with REW and listening test . 

Edit:
<<  in my setting process of right and left speaker, the toe in angle impact to  was not visible
<<  nor matter  in  REW measurements for optimizing the bass  ("the bass coupling with room")
<<  however the imaging and depth and overall balance was then good to fine tune with listening 
<<  and toe adjustment (like with any other methods)
<< after many  measurents I decided to optimize positioning for  frequency area from 60 to around 120Hz
<<  the fun here is in doing all the measurements and being able to compare the results later
<<  from different marked speaker positions (see many curves  on same screen in the REW Overlays  window)
<<  word of note:   read the last chapters of mic measuring: http://www.superlux.us/frequency_response.html
<<  I found   useful the  rew  curves for bass optimization/positioning andrevealed the room impact

<< One thing worth checking is to analyze both BIAMP version and non BIAMPED.
<< In case you have opportunity, check carefully both alternatives, because not all speakers are suitable
<< for BIAMPING and that the dynamic impedance curve in both alternatives  should be  "decent" load for each
<< power amplifier in use. Get yourself  familiar with line level attenuation circuits for the biamp power amps.
<< It may happen that non-biamped version has easier summary impedance curve and bass level / total sound is better
<< in case in doupt, try different amplifiers also  and the attenuation alternatives !
<< (different speaker hw simulation software and more measuremnts reveal the impedance curve ,
<< but that is a much longer story ...... )

<< the Ballad of a Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes and Rob Wasserman (Japan K2  mastering) 
http://www.amazon.com/Duets-K2HD-Master-Rob-Wasserman/dp/B005HSP8I4
[ - Jennifers voice is needed to adjust the sweet spot right in the middle of the stage. 
- in case voice center is ~1 feet +  at right,  the right speaker "dominates" and work continues :-)  or
- you can carefully with your own risk try to  test the amp  balance from speaker terminals  (unlikely) :
http://www.stereophile.com/content/question-about-stereo-imaging-voice-1#comment-328897
- compare mono and stereo pink noise  (adjust level  carefully):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/182229-stereo-image-stability-lateral-movement-vs-speaker-seperation.html#post2454994
Accurate performance of a stereo sound system:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/accurate%20stereo%20performance.htm
- the rack etc. may impact to centering: http://www.homestudiocorner.com/3-ways-to-kill-your-monitors-stereo-image/
- Chesky sampler vol 1   track 10   reveals if  centering is ok (when commentatorspeaking is 2 feet behind mic.)  ]
Chesky Jazz sampler vol 1:
http://www.amazon.com/Chesky-Records-Sampler-Audiophile-Compact/dp/B000003GF3
Chesky Jazz sampler vol 2:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Chesky-Classics-Jazz-Audiophile/dp/B000003GFM/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1395405167&sr=1-1&keywords=Chesky+Records+Jazz+Sampler+vol+2

<<  my room is problematic  L shape, that is kind of difficult to optimize the balance in an easy way
<< REW revealed  the full speaker + room impacted sound frequency spectrum at the listening position, but
<< only voice will indicate the exact centering / right-left balance

Some REW related primers:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/whats_the_measurement_understanding_and_properly_using_rta_fft/
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/699394-rew-periodic-pink-noise-plus-rta-sweet-spot-detector.html
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/wizardhelpv5/help_en-GB/html/spectrum.html
http://realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69725.0

First the basic placement of speakers and then later to the  Absorbers & Diffusers...:
http://www.mh-audio.nl/ACalculators.asp#showcalc
Get trapped:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp56A6TcL1E&feature=related
Calculate where the room modes are:
http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/room-eigenmodes.html
SBIR & Floor/Ceiling Bounce calculator
https://www.google.fi/#q=destructive+wall+reflections+calculator
Some other how to ideas
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html
« Last Edit: 30 Jun 2014, 07:13 pm by pre »

Delacroix

Re: Speaker placement sticky
« Reply #4 on: 1 Jul 2017, 01:48 am »
Wanted to add some experience here. I've played around with placement of my VR5 Anni IIs a lot, using the Nordost test disk LEDL tones to tweak final placement. After much fussing, I opted for closer together than I might have originally imagined for a listening triangle (more isosceles than equilateral) -- which sounded good. For reasons that don't really matter here, I found myself one day moving the Vons much wider than usual. Curious as to their sound, I listened, and after adjusting toe-in to bring back the central image that had become diffuse with the the wider spacing, I was quite surprised by what I heard. Much deeper soundstage and a far wider sweet-spot. I tweaked this a bit over a couple of hours and find now that I really am enjoying the results, to the point that I can actually enjoy the new Roger Waters LP enough to get over the rather limited sonics that originally disappointed me.

All this to say -- the position the speakers now occupy is not any place I would have normally found by using common sense interpretations of many of the guides here. They are now far wider apart, and toe-d in more than usual but still aiming behind my head, and they sound really good. So let me encourage some exploration outside the box if you are not totally happy with current set up. For me, a mix of the Masterset and wide starting point seems to be it. Your room will vary...use it, don't fight it.