How Too Isolation Feet

ABEX · « **Reply #20 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 04:49 pm »

Hey maybe that Fake Puke Rubber that they sell at some weird store's would work also!

When you get finished with that Laser Cutter would you send it to me!I promise I'll send it back!

There are many substances that would work.

I am using Aluminum Slabes .about 3" thick with sheet's that I cut out of Managahide(?) Sandwiched in between 2 and glued on the outter surfaces which works ok for the present.

Can't see speanding $$ for Footer's and thing's.Still looking around my Hometown for Superball's.Funny I have not seen them around for quite some time.

I need to go to the local Tombstone Engraver to get some Slabs of Marble.Have been thinking of that for yrs..Maybe in the spring after my Floorstander's arrive!Great idea to be put under a TT.

ABEX · « **Reply #21 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 04:52 pm »

BOSH wrote:
Question: How many do you use? Three? One in each corner? More?

Best thing to do is experiment ynless you have a Metter that can measure Vibraion to test.

ABEX

nathanm · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 05:22 pm »

Here's an obvious question I never see asked; why don't folks just put the gear in another room from where the speakers are playing? Wouldn't that nix 99% of the evil vibes?

Another thing I seriously wonder about is if any of this stuff really matters when the music is not loud. (let's say around 50-60db average) When the bass is really crankin' I can understand the case rattling, but I can't imagine much energy reaching the components when you're playing softly.

Another experiment I'd like to see tried is outright vibrational assault performed on gear in an isolated room away from the listening room. Put two matched amps in a room, or even two separate rooms with cables running into the listening chamber. Put a back massager or similar device on top of one amp and have the other just sitting on a shelf. A\B between the two. Would folks be able to tell I wonder? What if you blindfold the listener and then have someone lift up the amp while the music is playing and shake it around a bit in his hands. Audible?

ABEX · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 05:29 pm »

Not Logical enough!

You would then have to pay for some sort of VooDoo Dr. come in each time you wanted to play something to exocise those demons that lurk in the circuits!

People will pay for what the market says they need in order to combat anytype of unwarranted action weather or not it exist!

nathanm · « **Reply #24 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 06:20 pm »

Quote from: ABEX

People will pay for what the market says they need in order to combat anytype of unwarranted action weather or not it exist!

Oooooh I'm glad I'm not in your shoes after saying that!

I don't have a problem with tweaks, but I have yet to see a commercial product intended for vibrational damping that was SO full-ass that it wasn't something a crafty person could make themselves with over-the-counter normal hardware.

For example, Audiojerry has those feet with the ball bearing in the two cups under his CD player. The thing floats around when you push the buttons. Kind of nifty. But he has to hold it in place with a piece of string due to the cables pulling on the back. Why you'd want to pay 300 bucks for the privledge is what I don't get. Don't get me wrong, I totally appreciate quality metal machining. It is a very precise and it requires skilled operators and expensive equipment to make. But anyway, that's besides the point. Ball bearings are not expensive. All you need to figure out is how to reverse engineer some retaining cups. Surely that's a few miles away from 3 bills.

Even if I was an extremely wealthy person; I would hope I would never lose my sense of value. A few chunks of metal just isn't worth 600 bucks. I don't care if 600 bucks to my scale is like buying a can of soda from a vending machine for a person of moderate income, much of this stuff is still overpriced. I can understand HOW it gets to that sticker price, but the fact remains that you can do it yourself and save literally and non-exaggeratingly, hundreds of dollars.

To me, 10% increased convenience simply isn't worth 10x the price. But to many many people it must be, otherwise we would not even be seeing such products. This is a very strange world we live in.

ABEX · « **Reply #25 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 08:43 pm »

All I can say is if they had that old show "Your On Candid Camera" and they did a skit about having to get Isolation because the effects of what is going on in another Isolated room you need to spend $20K for it I wonder who would be the first in line to get it and be exposed for being taken by a charlatan .

Most tweeks have validity I know that,but when you pay for something that will cost more than a piece of electronics I think there is something wrong.

I am not one to believe that I absolutely need something in order for my system to sound 20X better that is a fixed non-electrical product.

I am in the same camp as you as I think that tweeks can be made with little expense.It is a rip-off to the consumer I think.Maybe not all together Snakeoil ,but not worth the expense.

For stands for Mini Monitors I want to have them suspended in mid air .I wonder if that would do away with Stand Colorations.

I have come here to try to find tweeks that are cost effective,not to test the water's as to weather I am outcasted from the community.

Another BB there is one who blatantly does not believe that even DAC's make a difference in the sound of CD playback.Electronics will always add coloration's to playback in a system.I do not cross that line.

You know, that is the truth though.You make it and people will come.Happens alot in audio no matter how ludicrous the device might be.ALot has to do with pushing it on the public.Like Sound Processor's that are suppose to change Audio Playback forever only to fall on the wayside like Quadraphonic and the Hughes Processor that came out a few yrs. ago.Went nowhere,but people still went for it.Now relegated to the Audio Trash Heap!

My wife would hit me over the head with a frying pan and say "Are you crazy!have you lost your mind!You want Isolation here BANG!

Now go back and get that money back you fool!"

JLM · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 Mar 2003, 11:51 am »

Great ideas guys!

I agree with the premise of tweaks, that they shouldn't cost bunches or radically change the affected equipment. That would be called a major modification, like Modwright, EVS, SACDmod, etc. Many of those modifications cost more than the original equipment, and at that point you got to again start to wonder if that's a reasonable proposition.

A couple of thoughts:

I've always prefered heavy equipment because it will lower resonance and require more energy to excite the piece. So why not add a leftover piece of synthetic solid countertop (Corian) from sink cut outs to the top of those relatively light weight pieces of equipment? Suggestions for how to couple them together?

Putting amps, etc. in nearby rooms/closets or on different floors entirely is a good idea IMO. If that's not possible, how about built in cabinetry? Or the McIntosh style of surface mounting equipment to a wall (hopefully the backside of an adjoining closet. Sure would make installation clean and connections easier. A clever clap could devise a way to combine industrial equipment racks with wall construction also to good effect. (Too bad there aren't more rack mountable CD players or turntables.)

jeff

ABEX · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 Mar 2003, 03:30 pm »

You have to look at the performance to $$ ratio also.Is it going to outperform anything in it's class\price.Is it going to come close to the performance of SOTA or equal after the mod ?

Take the ART Mods.People are stating that it is up there with a Shanling player.Musical Concepts amp mods are being said to equal the performance of some of the best amps out there.

When getting my B&K modded there was an A/B test done against a Krell going for 3X the price and it came very close to it's performance.I'll say one thing,I would rather have spent the $$ becuase even today when I go to audition equiptment I go running from the room or else I can only take about 2-3mins before I say I've had enough becaise I hear a masking or veiling of vocals and the soundstaging is not as good with the speaker's I hear which are also modified.

So in the final analysis you bet it's worth it even if the cost is 2-4X the amount.We are talking of a unit that cost less than $100 with the DIO.If you do not like the idea there is always the SN DAC,but then again you can consistantly up the performance of the DIO with better parts.

JMO

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 Mar 2003, 04:14 pm »

Quote

Here's an obvious question I never see asked; why don't folks just put the gear in another room from where the speakers are playing? Wouldn't that nix 99% of the evil vibes?

Once again Nathan is the voice of reason. When I remodeled my basement I made arrangements (a trimmed hole in the wall basically) to allow speaker cables to pass through the wall behind my speakers, so all the electronics are in a different room with a closeable door. I've put electronics in walk-in closets before, too. This seems so obvious, but of course no one is making any money off of that solution. {Oh, did I say that out loud?} I know this is not always an option, but if it is it makes more sense than magnetic levitation and mystery compounds, no?

Harmon · « **Reply #29 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 03:55 pm »

Hey Moray, please take some digital pictures of each step of building the isolation pods. It would be a great help to all audiophiles everywhere.

karthikn · « **Reply #30 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 05:27 pm »

Quote from: ABEX

ABEX wrote:
Best thing to do is experiment ynless you have a Metter that can measure Vibraion to test.

Water in a glass cup ala Jurassic Park T-Rex stomp shockwaves. Taking care not to spill it down the vents of your equipment.

Carlman · « **Reply #31 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 06:13 pm »

Just a quick question about 'bouncy balls' or super balls or whatever you want to call them... There are 2 sizes, a large and a small.
I like to play with these kinds of balls so, I will probably acquire some for jocularity as well as absorption thrills.

Just curious if anyone had any advice on:
What size ball to obtain and;
Whether cutting them in half would be advisable. (That way, there would be a flat part for the gear.)

Thanks,
Carl

Hantra · « **Reply #32 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 06:32 pm »

If anyone applies simple logic to this, they will see that using a "bouncy ball" is a ridiculous idea for components. I would be willing to put money on a test between a "bouncy ball", or any type of rubber isolation device vs. vibration drainage devices (such as cones).

If you take away the mechanical ground of a component, you leave all the acoustic vibrations, and internally created mechanical vibrations INSIDE the chassis. They cannot get out. How would they be able to escape when there is no mechanical ground? Rubber certainly won't provide the conduit that vibration needs to travel through.

While it's true that you can isolate the component from earth-borne vibration using rubber, I would be willing to lay it on the line and say that a typical CD transport creates hundreds and hundreds of times more vibration within the chassis of a component than some ground vibration.

Not only that, but most of us have SPEAKERS. Their job is to create immense acoustic vibrations by moving lots of air. Nathan's idea about placing components in another room is great! If you can afford the cabling. heh. . . That is the only way you can somewhat isolate from acoustic vibration. You still have to consider the internally generated vibration.

It's just not a good idea to put 100% of your isolation attempt into preventing ground vibration from entering the component. That is 5% or less of our vibration problem.

Carlman · « **Reply #33 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 06:48 pm »

Ah man... I just wanted a reason to buy cheap toys.

Hantra · « **Reply #34 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 07:07 pm »

Carl:

I'm not trying to discourage you from trying. I shouldn't have posted. I've just been through the gambit on things like this, and I have tried it all. I have been at one extreme with the Michael green racks, and clamping, and then I have been at the other with the rubber squishy crap. I don't necessarily like the clamping, but it KILLS rubber.

Try the rubber, and I'd be curious how you like it. I'll tell you what it'll sound like. It'll sound exactly what you think rubber will sound like. Slow, squishy, confused, etc. . .

I apologize if I came off like an @ss, and I wasn't directing it at anyone. It just makes so much more sense to me to ground a component, and I suppose I get emotional when I remember how bad the $100 worth of rubber squishy balls actually slaughtered my sound. It's upsetting. hehe

B

WilliamL · « **Reply #35 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 07:13 pm »

I agree with all Hantra has said about vibrations and proper drainage thereof. I also agree that clamping is overrated and we don't encourage the practice too much anymore because certain equipment runs a risk of being damaged by this practice. Clamping also does not always improve the sound and many times colors the system sound and makes things worse.

Try all the possibilites though and draw your own conclusions.

Cheers,
Bill

Carlman · « **Reply #36 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 08:09 pm »

Seriously, I really just wanted to buy some bouncy balls to play with.... like, literally, to bounce them around. Then, as sort of an aside, I'd put a few under my equipment to see what it does.. for fun.
I wasn't the least bit offended.
My sarcasm/wit/whathaveyou doesn't come across well electronically.

I'm not an isolation nazi. I'm using a combination of vibra-pods and sorbothane feet at the moment. I honestly can't tell much of a difference from the stock feet. My system is sounding really good these days so, I don't think isolation would make much of a difference. Also, the whole system is encased in a large, extremely heavy entertainment system. My speakers are spiked but, my floor sounds hollow and I have cheap carpet. It looks pretty but, it's just a cheap apartment townhouse.

The ONLY problem I have at the moment is lack of room treatment. And as soon as my wife goes out of town for a weekend, that will be resolved.

markC · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 09:50 pm »

Caution Carlman, she will return! I found the best way is a bit at a time. Over the past 2-3 years the rec room has become a listening room.

First move the sectional couch then the coffee table then add bass traps.... Minimal resistence from the wife, one step at a time, hehe. Now I'm slowly introducing covering the front wall with acoustic foam.

Hantra · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 Apr 2003, 10:51 pm »

Carl:

I have 4 extra 8th Nerve corners you could try out. I am not using them at the moment, and they will make a huge difference for you. Very unobtrusive. Then you can slip in more here and there. hehe

B

John Bauder · « **Reply #39 on:** 1 May 2003, 01:45 am »

Moray if your speakers sit directly on carpet would you put something on the carpet like MDF, then the isolation feet between that and the speakers? Any other materials better than MDF? Or would spikes be better on carpet?