[max190]

usp1, I would try moving them closer together. Say 6' firing straight no toe.

[Rclark]

Honestly I would just do the cardas calc for planars, tweeters in. Works great.

[josh358]

Dipoles don't generally image to the left and right of the speakers. Omnis sometimes sound like the sound is coming from beyond the speaker, but that's due to first reflections from the side walls, which create an artificial sense of width. Dipoles have a null at the sides and so excite the sidewall first reflection points less. However, they do produce some energy and if you want imaging beyond the speakers, you're more likely to get it if you *remove* the absorption at the sidewall first reflection points. It's decidedly optional with dipoles and in your case may be doing harm. Then rotating the speakers on their axis (toe-in) may help you get the sound you want: try putting the speakers parallel to the front wall of the room, that should move the null away from the sidewall first reflection point, it's fairly narrow, see the figure 8 pattern here:

http://rrecording-ing.blogspot.com/2011/02/directionality-of-microphones-polar.html

I'd also try removing the absorption behind the speakers, you'll likely gain depth and maybe width from the second reflection (speaker to front wall to side wall to you). With planars, diffusion is more popular at the front wall first reflection points, though those who prefer a dry acoustic do sometimes prefer absorption. In general, planars benefit from less room treatment than omnis.

Agree that if you do these things and the image isn't wide enough, you should consider the long wall, you can pull planars far apart on a long wall for a "curtain of sound" effect.

Also -- this is true of any planar setup (boxes too, but to a lesser degree) -- you'll get the best sound by experimenting, moving the speakers in and out, to and fro a bit at a time, trying different toe-ins, etc. At some point things will gel and you'll know where they sound best.

I don't understand why the sound is folding back to the center when it should be at the speaker, I've never heard of that.

[Rclark]

I have noticed that with the mod, actually it was one of the first things I noticed was that depending on the recording they are capable of the trick of making it seem like some instruments are further to the sides of the speakers.

I wish I had a 25 foot wall.. I think you should try it ay your earliest possibility, I Think you will be stunned.

[berni]

Try some audio test CD tracks , where the stage is recorded in a certain way. This easily shows if your XO are not wired correctly.
But people often think that sound should come from far outside the speaker even it is not recorded that way. Some people are irritated by the large panels, where the  size locks there image and they see or hear the sound coming from the panels. A friend of mine couldn't get used to my 20.1 panels , he had to close his eyes to hear correctly. 

[usp1]

Berni - I did the Chesky test because I felt that the soundstage was a bit constricted while listening to my usual go to CDs. There are some phase tests on the same CD but I was not able to hear a notable difference between their in-phase and out-of-phase recordings.

You are right about the visual effect of the large panels.

[berni]

Maybe you should make a photo or a plan  of the wiring in the XO box, this could be the problem.

[rw@cn]

Berni - I did the Chesky test because I felt that the soundstage was a bit constricted while listening to my usual go to CDs. There are some phase tests on the same CD but I was not able to hear a notable difference between their in-phase and out-of-phase recordings.

You are right about the visual effect of the large panels.

I believe that you should hear big differences between in and out of phase tests. In-phase should be distinct and usually dead center. Out-of-phase should be diffuse without any apparent source. Move the speakers to get this effect (assuming connections are proper).

[Davey]

I'm not familiar with the Chesky test disk tracks, but rw is correct.  There should be a big difference when listening to in/out of phase tracks.  Clearly, there is something mis-wired in your system.

It's not enough to have the woofers in phase with each other and/or the tweeters in phase with each other....the relative polarity is important as well.  This could have easily been screwed up by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

Cheers,

Dave.

[cfraser]

I sure hear an obvious diff when my 1.6s are fed OOP signals, no imaging when that happens.

Aren't the "drivers" in the 1.6s wired in opposite phase to each other? Please don't take my word on that as I don't recall for sure but thought it was like that. I am of course mentioning it because whoever hooked up the outboard XOs (originally or subsequently) may have got it wrong.

Even commercially made speakers sometimes get it wrong inside, and it sounds weird especially if it's the midrange driver. Coincidentally my vintage Tannoys also have the (coaxial) drivers wired OOP (by design) so it's something I was wary of.

[Rclark]

I do hope you get it figured out. Incidentally, for the past two days I tried putting the tweeters back inside on my long wall setup and it made me cringe, the same way tweeters outside made me cringe on the short wall setup.

[usp1]

I wont be able to get back to them for a couple of weeks due to work pressure. I will take some pictures and post them when I get a chance so I can get help from you to make sure everything is properly connected.

I appreciate all the help so far.

[Rclark]

Hey, be thankful for that work pressure. Lotta people would kill to feel it. See you when you come back down. 

[usp1]

OMG...the difference little things make.

I had a couple of hours today to play with this again, so I decided to try some small things that people recommended. I closed the door to the opening on the right wall and removed the absorption panel from the left wall. So now there is actually a reflecting surface on both right and left walls for both first reflection points and bingo! The soundstage is wider, the Chesky recording extreme right and left images are credibly where they have to be...no snapping back to center. What a complete change. When I put back the absorption panel on the left wall and keep the door closed the right extreme image is still there but the left extreme image becomes less defined.

These speakers are marvelous. I am playing Flaming Lips Yoshimo Battles as I type this and the soundstage is phenomenal. The detail is incredible and (to use a cliche) I am hearing things on the album that I had never heard before.

I am also realizing that I need some diffusers (or absorption?) on the ceiling at the first reflection point. ANd perhaps a better amp too. The Rogue is great for low level listening but craps out when I turn up the volume. THe emotiva mps-1 seems to manage the higher volumes fine but does not have the delicacy that the Rogue exhibits at the lower volumes.

I will try the long wall one of these days to test the "curtain of sound" someone suggested in one of the earlier posts.

Thank you all for the help and suggestions.

[Rclark]

If it's like a curtain of sound then on the short wall it's like that curtain is sort of bunched up together to fit in that space and when you go long wall you spread the curtain open, no more bunching, and you can now see all the detail in the fabric.

[josh358]

OMG...the difference little things make.

I had a couple of hours today to play with this again, so I decided to try some small things that people recommended. I closed the door to the opening on the right wall and removed the absorption panel from the left wall. So now there is actually a reflecting surface on both right and left walls for both first reflection points and bingo! The soundstage is wider, the Chesky recording extreme right and left images are credibly where they have to be...no snapping back to center.

Great, thought it might, though I still don't understand why it folded back to the center -- that's a new one on me.

The rule is really simple -- left and right wall reflections give you width, reflections off the wall behind the speakers give you depth, and the farther the speaker is from those surfaces they more spacious the sound will be. The illustration on Page 87 of Floyd Toole's excellent book explains it well:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=sGmz0yONYFcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sound+reproduction+floyd+toole&source=bl&ots=LFHidigFfE&sig=usurayjwcUCiijcQoQRfx4VJFt8&hl=en&ei=CoVcTdPUBsnOgAfAqLCkDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

[SteveFord]

I've been following this thread and I'm glad to hear that it was an easy fix for you.