Super V ground up build - sharing the experience

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Tyson

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #260 on: 22 Mar 2012, 02:48 am »
Be careful, very soon your "blown away" experience with the Super V's will become your new standard.  And once you are acclimated to that new standard, most other systems will sound pretty underwhelming.

MichaelHiFi

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #261 on: 22 Mar 2012, 02:14 pm »
I knew I saved this for just such emergencies. . . :D  Michael, if you can't find it otherwise, PM me your email address (or send me an email) and I'll send you a .pdf of it.

 :beer:

Got it, thanks Jonathon.  :wave:

gldaniels

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #262 on: 24 Mar 2012, 11:45 pm »
I'm in the late stages of my Super V build (along time in the making) and have a couple questions relating to this new Jupiter Cap and inductor in the crossover (which I don't have because I bought my kit over a year ago), as well as a question about connections and settings on the Rythmik plate amp.

1) I am debating whether to implement this Jupiter Cap modification, and I was wondering if I might be able to use caps that I already own, which are rather nice and expensive Hovland Musicap 2.0 mf caps instead of the 2.2 mf Jupiters. I don't have any spare inductors lying around, so I'd have to buy those for sure, and maybe I would just need to adjust that value to account for the slight difference in the cap value.  Just a thought.

2) I haven't seen any discussions or details about the set up and adjustments to the plate amp, which seems to be quite complex and adjustable. There must be a thousand different permutations of setting on that beast, and I don't know where to begin.

Just a quick peak at my build as it stands so far.




Danny Richie

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #263 on: 25 Mar 2012, 03:41 am »
Quote
1) I am debating whether to implement this Jupiter Cap modification, and I was wondering if I might be able to use caps that I already own, which are rather nice and expensive Hovland Musicap 2.0 mf caps instead of the 2.2 mf Jupiters. I don't have any spare inductors lying around, so I'd have to buy those for sure, and maybe I would just need to adjust that value to account for the slight difference in the cap value.  Just a thought.

The Hovland caps are Aluminum foil caps rolled in a poly film and are very bright and often grainy in their character. That would be the wrong direction with these. The Sonicaps that the kit came with are a far better choice.

The Jupiter caps are a film and foil in paper and bees wax. They are a much smoother and lush sounding cap. They are a great match for this driver.

Quote
2) I haven't seen any discussions or details about the set up and adjustments to the plate amp, which seems to be quite complex and adjustable. There must be a thousand different permutations of setting on that beast, and I don't know where to begin.

Here you go. Measured and tested to be just right. Start here and then tweak as per your room.



Also, a tube trap in that corner and pulling the speakers out a little further from the wall would go a long way.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #264 on: 25 Mar 2012, 03:57 am »
Danny, maybe a dumb question (maybe just academic?) in pairing the servo subs with high-efficiency speakers:  Consider that the line level inputs on the amp are wired such that running a splitter to both L+R inputs would get you +3db of gain before hitting the controls built in to the amp.  One could then turn the gain knob on the amp down a bit.

Would (does?) it sound better/worse/not really any different picking up more gain to the servos from the preamp rather than the plate amp?  (Maybe wouldn't be different than running the output from a pre at +3db hotter than normal?)

I was kind of thinking in terms of headroom/adjustment room on the plate amp, but maybe the whole point is moot with the OB subs considering the system is driver/excursion limited in output rather than limited by available power (regardless of whether or not the output capability is more than adequate with the settings/configuration as shown)?

gldaniels

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #265 on: 25 Mar 2012, 04:10 pm »
Thanks Danny. I'll skip the Hovland caps for sure and consider adding the Jupiter at some point. I'm just finishing the original crossovers now, but my board is big enough to receive the added components when the time comes.

Is that just one connection coming into the plate amp, or is the black connection just hidden in the photo?

gldaniels

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #266 on: 25 Mar 2012, 04:12 pm »
Oh, and I will have my tube trap back in the corner when everything is complete.  It's just out during the "construction" phase.

gldaniels

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #267 on: 25 Mar 2012, 04:18 pm »
OK, now I get it...... Of course, these plate amps are mono amps in this case. You can see why this project has taken me so long to work through. And it doesn't help that my job eats up at least 70 hours a week with a lot of travel.   

Danny Richie

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #268 on: 26 Mar 2012, 01:27 am »
Danny, maybe a dumb question (maybe just academic?) in pairing the servo subs with high-efficiency speakers:  Consider that the line level inputs on the amp are wired such that running a splitter to both L+R inputs would get you +3db of gain before hitting the controls built in to the amp.  One could then turn the gain knob on the amp down a bit.

Would (does?) it sound better/worse/not really any different picking up more gain to the servos from the preamp rather than the plate amp?  (Maybe wouldn't be different than running the output from a pre at +3db hotter than normal?)

I was kind of thinking in terms of headroom/adjustment room on the plate amp, but maybe the whole point is moot with the OB subs considering the system is driver/excursion limited in output rather than limited by available power (regardless of whether or not the output capability is more than adequate with the settings/configuration as shown)?

It should sound the same.

MichaelHiFi

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #269 on: 27 Mar 2012, 04:32 am »
Quick update;

So the speakers are burning in and the Tyler Decade D1's have been reinserted in the system.

The Decades sound very good. A different presentation and a different way to express music. I would call it accurate, not to the point of clinical but a great frequency response. I did an RTA which I tried to post on Youtube but it seems I failed. I don't do youtube although I know it's wildly popular. I suck at social media except geeky audio forums and I probably suck there (here) too.  :icon_lol:

Going back to the Super V's we get a very different perspective. You've got bass, plenty of it. The highs are good not great, not a lot of air and the mids I hope will come around. We were listening to Depeche Mode "Ultra", a favorite of ours from a while back. It was pretty aggressive sounding. We reminisced on how good it sounded with our reference system, The Pass amp, PerfectWave DAC, LS6, Cary Preamp combo. That was magic.

I started listening again to the song "uselink" the had a thought about the Sonic cap directly in the path of of my positive lead of the interconnect. It struck me in a way that it seemed to me that the entire character of my system was now fully dependent of the character of that cap. I told my wife that putting such faith in a "Sonic cap" directly in the signal chain may not be a good idea. I mean hell, maybe a Dueland or nothing at all. I also realize that cap is not broken in. Let's take it out and give it a listen.

Now were rockin! Oh ya, voices have body, no etchiness, nastiness, let's turn it up! Air guitar was happening.   :guitar:  The 4th cut of that album is priceless. The guttural sound of the bass line is addicting through these speakers.

I'm still waiting for my amp. Decware called me (what a concept) and came to an agreement that they'll fix my burned up amp, try to mitigate the smell and perform the upgrade I wanted, an expensive one to the V-Caps.






Danny Richie

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #270 on: 27 Mar 2012, 01:39 pm »
Those Sonicap Platinum's will need a good 500 to 1000 hours of burn in time. The same goes for those Jupiter caps in the tweeter circuit.

And I have had several high end amp manufactures switch from V-Caps to the Sonicap Platinum's liking the Platinum's better. And the Platinum's are less expensive.

MichaelHiFi

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #271 on: 27 Mar 2012, 02:42 pm »
We have the Sonic cap back in the signal chain and burning with the mute circuit engaged on the pre. It's in a really tough stage of its life  :|

The Jupiter's we've noticed, are already starting to smooth out. We used the Sonic caps on the LS6's with similar results - they are tough to listen to for a while.

I'm not sold on any one cap. They are sound different and I can't say I've had experience with many but if you do enough research, they seem to have their own unique traits. Duelund and gold/silver oil Mundorf's seem to lead the long pack. I wanted to play with the sound of some of these caps. That's why I opted for outboard cross-overs on the Decades. But one must have patience, time, money and a way to burn those suckers in or you'll never be able to enjoy your music  :)

If I were to borrow some verbiage off a pretty cool website regarding the Jupiters Danny uses.

Jupiter HT BeesWax 600VDC - 5% tolerance

"Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Old Concept New Technology - A unique blend of the old sound with refinements of the new. New high temp series replaces the original beeswax/paper design. Jupiter Condenser HT line of capacitors features a reinforced beeswax paper dielectric and (with further improved impregnation techniques) is now cased in a non drip/melt casing and can withstand higher operating temperatures. Perfect for DIY and OEM use where natural sound is demanded. Operating Temperature: 70°C; Voltage: 600VDC - Tested at 1200VDC at two stages of production; Aluminum Foil; Silver Lead wire 20awg; Cryogenic Treatment; Made in USA of US materials."

Sound: I found the Jupiter HT BeesWax to be very spatious and rich in harmonic texture. They are clear and open but there is never and over-emphasis on any area. Compared to AmpOhm aluminium foil types the Jupiter has more air and they produce a wider image where as the AmpOhm project more front to back. Still not quite as neutral and coherent sounding as the Duelund VSF but at the same high quality level as the top of the range Mundorf's. They have a nice fleshy treble with a rich midrange to match. They act well under all conditions and don't seem to have any preferences. I find them very pleasing to listen to."

Seem sort of perfect for the Super V's. Guess that's why he used them!  :thumb:

As far as the V-Caps are concerned, that's what the manufacturer offers. The warning on those was that's it takes 500-1000hrs to settle in! Sound familiar?




Danny Richie

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #272 on: 27 Mar 2012, 03:16 pm »
Quote
As far as the V-Caps are concerned, that's what the manufacturer offers. The warning on those was that's it takes 500-1000hrs to settle in! Sound familiar?

Yep, that is pretty much a standard for any Teflon based cap.

Tyson

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #273 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:24 pm »
Or you could take ALL of the caps (and coils) out of the signal path and go fully active!   :o

Jerrin

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #274 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:38 pm »
We have the Sonic cap back in the signal chain and burning with the mute circuit engaged on the pre. It's in a really tough stage of its life  :|

The Jupiter's we've noticed, are already starting to smooth out. We used the Sonic caps on the LS6's with similar results - they are tough to listen to for a while.

I'm not sold on any one cap. They are sound different and I can't say I've had experience with many but if you do enough research, they seem to have their own unique traits. Duelund and gold/silver oil Mundorf's seem to lead the long pack. I wanted to play with the sound of some of these caps. That's why I opted for outboard cross-overs on the Decades. But one must have patience, time, money and a way to burn those suckers in or you'll never be able to enjoy your music  :)

If I were to borrow some verbiage off a pretty cool website regarding the Jupiters Danny uses.

Jupiter HT BeesWax 600VDC - 5% tolerance

"Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Old Concept New Technology - A unique blend of the old sound with refinements of the new. New high temp series replaces the original beeswax/paper design. Jupiter Condenser HT line of capacitors features a reinforced beeswax paper dielectric and (with further improved impregnation techniques) is now cased in a non drip/melt casing and can withstand higher operating temperatures. Perfect for DIY and OEM use where natural sound is demanded. Operating Temperature: 70°C; Voltage: 600VDC - Tested at 1200VDC at two stages of production; Aluminum Foil; Silver Lead wire 20awg; Cryogenic Treatment; Made in USA of US materials."

Sound: I found the Jupiter HT BeesWax to be very spatious and rich in harmonic texture. They are clear and open but there is never and over-emphasis on any area. Compared to AmpOhm aluminium foil types the Jupiter has more air and they produce a wider image where as the AmpOhm project more front to back. Still not quite as neutral and coherent sounding as the Duelund VSF but at the same high quality level as the top of the range Mundorf's. They have a nice fleshy treble with a rich midrange to match. They act well under all conditions and don't seem to have any preferences. I find them very pleasing to listen to."

Seem sort of perfect for the Super V's. Guess that's why he used them!  :thumb:

As far as the V-Caps are concerned, that's what the manufacturer offers. The warning on those was that's it takes 500-1000hrs to settle in! Sound familiar?

If you'd like something neutral and spacious, without breaking the bank, try a Clarity Cap MR.  These things are really something.  However, I'd be the first to agree that there really isn't anything much better than a sonicap for the price (assuming you prefer neutrality).   I really enjoy the sound of Duelund, but that's real $$$$$.

Cheeseboy

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #275 on: 27 Mar 2012, 06:14 pm »
Which Cary Preamp and which Pass amp were you using with the Ls6?

MichaelHiFi

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #276 on: 27 Mar 2012, 07:51 pm »
Which Cary Preamp and which Pass amp were you using with the Ls6?

I was using the Cary SLP-05 and a Pass Labs X350.5. The Allnic probably betters the Cary although the Cary had a great deal of flexibility. The Cary was a beautiful 2 chassis unit. The Allnic is beautiful and just carries the music.

I didn't need 350WPC for the Super V's  :green:

MichaelHiFi

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #277 on: 27 Mar 2012, 07:58 pm »
If you'd like something neutral and spacious, without breaking the bank, try a Clarity Cap MR.  These things are really something.  However, I'd be the first to agree that there really isn't anything much better than a sonicap for the price (assuming you prefer neutrality).   I really enjoy the sound of Duelund, but that's real $$$$$.

I haven't been able to get my system built as a whole due to so many problems. Waiting for that (broken amp), on the fence about this (modding the Oppo or stand alone DAC), loving line arrays but going with the Super V's.

I need to stop.

Stop this madness  :icon_twisted:

But I'm not alone. The wife unit wants the magic too, and we had this with the LS6's. With the Super V's, we think we can better that amazing synergy.

Once I have an intact, working system, then we could have fun, if we want with trying a cap or 2 here and there. I've heard great things about Duelund resistors too. Do I really want to go there  :scratch:

Jerrin

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #278 on: 27 Mar 2012, 09:00 pm »
I haven't been able to get my system built as a whole due to so many problems. Waiting for that (broken amp), on the fence about this (modding the Oppo or stand alone DAC), loving line arrays but going with the Super V's.

I need to stop.

Stop this madness  :icon_twisted:

But I'm not alone. The wife unit wants the magic too, and we had this with the LS6's. With the Super V's, we think we can better that amazing synergy.

Once I have an intact, working system, then we could have fun, if we want with trying a cap or 2 here and there. I've heard great things about Duelund resistors too. Do I really want to go there  :scratch:

I've heard great things about the resistors too.  I ordered some, but I haven't had the chance to hear them yet.  I've only heard their caps. 

Right now I'm building a set of LS9's crossovers using all Duelund parts, but it will be a while before I can finish.  I'm saving up for the remaining two big caps.  I also have a set of custom Dodd monoblocks being built that will be using some Duelund parts.  I really like the sound of Duelund's stuff, just not their prices.    :o

MichaelHiFi

Re: Super V ground up build - sharing the experience
« Reply #279 on: 27 Mar 2012, 09:35 pm »
I've heard great things about the resistors too.  I ordered some, but I haven't had the chance to hear them yet.  I've only heard their caps. 

Right now I'm building a set of LS9's crossovers using all Duelund parts, but it will be a while before I can finish.  I'm saving up for the remaining two big caps.  I also have a set of custom Dodd monoblocks being built that will be using some Duelund parts.  I really like the sound of Duelund's stuff, just not their prices.    :o

I need to keep track of your build  :drool: