[Davey]

regarding the comment that the industry is not taken seriously, i respectfully disagree.  afaik, this has always been the case since the beginning of the industry.  hi-end audio has always been a lunatic fringe pursuit, and there have always been different segments of it - those who try to sell high price as a product itself, those who try to offer walue, but the product is still necessarily expensive, and those who try to offer hi-end sound for relatively bargain pricing.  and everything in between.  same as it ever was.   

ymmv,

doug s.

Well, I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.  Back in the fifties and sixties companies like McIntosh and Marantz were producing amplifiers and Quad, Lowther, Klipsch, AR, etc, etc, were producing speaker systems that formed the basis of excellent systems.  All semi-affordable for the average guy if he saved up a bit of money.  Yes, there still was a "lunatic fringe" but you didn't need massive money to be a member. 

Slide forward fifty years and Berni has cited a prime example of the silliness of "high-end audio" in his postings.  Soulsonic wanted to sell the systems somewhere in the 10-30k range but a "distributor" suggested a $100k price tag.    This "distributor" is probably not exceptional so you can see where the potential problem arises in the silly costing structure of this "industry."

There's a reason why Magnepan (and other companies) are migrating towards direct-to-customer sales.  The "high end" dealers/distributors are no longer connected to the financial reality and effectively ignore a large percentage of potential customers.  It's surprising (actually I guess not really) that many young people have no concept at all of what's capable in home audio reproduction.  It doesn't help that the music "industry" is turning out complete trash nowadays and that every young person has an Ipod with buds playing horribly compressed music.

It's sad to see this evolution in audio reproduction, but I don't see anything on the horizon to change the course.

Cheers,

Dave.

[berni]

It was his first great experience at CES 2011. .

Everybody first sees the price and then the debate goes the wrong way... Nobody actually asked how they sound or what potential could they eventually have?
People never ask why Magico or Wilson speakers cost so much , alltough they often  sound very bad. Why people always want to judge  everything on money, not on purpose the things are build for(sound).
 My relation, as I said we know each other after I got my 20.1 and we got friends. He loves planars and that is what brougt us together, no other interest here..
Proud slovenian? Hmm, I am proud but here the nationality has nothing to do with it.
I also like Jim Winey for  what he did for all us.. My 20.1 are getting some heavy current right now 

[berni]

Great post Dave, if my english would be better I would write this...

[Davey]

People never ask why Magico or Wilson speakers cost so much.....

I do. 

Dave.

[berni]

I do. 

Dave.

I ask myself why they sound so bad...

[jimdgoulding]

I do, too, Davey.

[doug s.]

Well, I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.  Back in the fifties and sixties companies like McIntosh and Marantz were producing amplifiers and Quad, Lowther, Klipsch, AR, etc, etc, were producing speaker systems that formed the basis of excellent systems.  All semi-affordable for the average guy if he saved up a bit of money.  Yes, there still was a "lunatic fringe" but you didn't need massive money to be a member. 

dave, $400 for a pair of mac tube amps in 1950 was certainly lunatic fringe money for that time - equivalent to ~$4k today.  while you might think $4k is not lunatic fringe in today's society, realize that in 1950, the average salary was yust under $3k/year, and the price of a loaf of bread was ~$0.14.  there is no doubt in my mind that many folks purchasing this gear in the '50's  were purchasing status as much as they were good sound.  it's yust that in those days, status didn't cost as much either.     there was plenty of other gear that sound yust as good, imo, that didn't have the "cachet" of a mcintosh.  like stromberg-carlson and sherwood, heathkit, for example.  wintage gear from these companies today is every bit as good as wintage gear from mcintosh.  in fact, i can categorically state that sherwood wintage tubed tuners are better than their mac counterparts.

again, ymmv,

doug s.

[doug s.]

People never ask why Magico or Wilson speakers cost so much...

I do. 

Dave.

davey, you aren't alone - i put this gear in the same category - what is for sale is the high price.

doug s.

[doug s.]

Slide forward fifty years and Berni has cited a prime example of the silliness of "high-end audio" in his postings.  Soulsonic wanted to sell the systems somewhere in the 10-30k range but a "distributor" suggested a $100k price tag.    This "distributor" is probably not exceptional so you can see where the potential problem arises in the silly costing structure of this "industry."

and who is forcing this mfr to use this distributor?     the mfr can set his own prices...  when i see the prices being published from $10k-$30k, i will have a different opinion...

doug s.

[SteveFord]

All I can say is that after reading this in the review:

On two occasions I said to myself quietly: "Darn, this is good and way above expectations"

is take my 100K and make me happy!
All kidding aside, Berni, you've heard them, what do you think?  What sets them apart from what you've got at home?  Who tried that 30-40% out in the room idea first, you or him?
You'd think that something similar could be done with a set of Magnepan ribbons if you're really handy.

Oh yeah, don't listen to doug s., he'll have your house infested with Sherwood tuners like mine is.

[Davey]

Doug,

'Last I looked, 4k is not that much money for an amp today.  It's high yes, but a "high-end" audiophile can EASILY spend waaaaaay more for an amplifier today.

Speaking of Sherwood......I still have an S-7100 receiver I purchased in 1972.  It does garage duty now but it's been chugging away nearly every day for forty years!  I paid a few hundred (1971) dollars for it then.  I figure I got my money's worth. 

You're correct that nobody is forcing a manufacturers into expensive "distribution" networks.  Hopefully more manufacturers will choose to go another route.

Cheers,

Dave.

[berni]

Steve,
 first of all, I should point out that Miro, the designer of SoulSonics is mad about many planar speakers like all sorts of Maggies, the old Apogees, some Soundlabs, Acoustats, etc.

He is also really mad about my current setup, but only in the reverse position. He has heard my original setup with bare 20.1, but thinks that with my stands the sound has gained unbelievably in all regards.

However..., his Impulses for instance (which are roughly the same dimensions as my 20.1) seem better almost in every regard, except the high frequency "sheen", but this on the other hand is somewhat too pronounced to be real with my 20.1.

Perhaps my 20.1s are somewhat more precise in the lower midrange area, but also more lean and less dynamic. Impulses (and Waves for that matter) have incredible dynamics throughout the entire audible spectrum. They sound very airy in the natural sense, tonally and harmonically correct, with great bass slam and extension and...better image specificity than my 20.1.

Among other virtues would be much more explosive and dynamic reproduction of the piano in the critical presence area, without sounding annoying or distorted. They are capable of very high sound levels, provided they are sufficiently away from the back wall and sometimes they struck me as horns (dynamically) without horn colorations. They are way more sensitive than my Maggies and are overall just incredibly involving in the musical sense.

They also sound very coherent and as far as I know one comment from Schroeder about coherency was actually more about using different amps for ribbons and woofers at the show in Las Vegas than general driver mismatch.

Of course they are not perfect though (but which speakers are?) and Miro doesn`t think they are the audio equivalent of the Holy Grail.

All in all I think they are an incredible package in all regards...now sue me

About the 30-40% out in the room idea , he tried it first with his speakers after reading Ivan Li-s suggestion. I was his victim afterwards 

[SteveFord]

Can I sue you for 100 large? 
Here's hoping that they can make it over here for considerably less than that.
Thanks for the review!

[berni]

Can I sue you for 100 large? 
Here's hoping that they can make it over here for considerably less than that.
Thanks for the review!

Damn, there goes my car, my belowed 20.1 maybe even my wife 

You can bet on this!

 Your wish is my command.

[doug s.]

Last I looked, 4k is not that much money for an amp today.  It's high yes, but a "high-end" audiophile can EASILY spend waaaaaay more for an amplifier today.

davey, if you re-read my post, you will see i addressed this issue.  the cost of products being sold for status not yust for performance, has also been affected by inflation in a big way. 

best,

doug s.

[SteveFord]

I have a hard enough time with one wife and I know that you really like your speakers.
A car, you say? 

[berni]

European car, not suitable for your wide roads and  speed limits...
Lets rather go for a beer 

[SteveFord]

Well Tempered Bill Firebaugh's right, life's too short for litigation.
A happy resolution, we'll settle out of court.

[doug s.]

European car, not suitable for your wide roads and  speed limits...
Lets rather go for a beer 

does this mean i should stop drooling over the fiat 500?   

doug s.

[berni]

does this mean i should stop drooling over the fiat 500?   

doug s.

No, live your "big" 500 dreams  , but it is better we all go for a beer.