[RenaissanceMan]

I just bought a used set of satin black SongTowers which I was really excited about getting. Unfortunately, they were dented/chipped in several places during shipping and will likely be returned for a refund which I was going to put toward replacement. However, while I've been waiting for the claims process to complete, I've been auditioning them by listening to a variety of different CDs. Because I could not find anyone with a pair locally, I bought these speakers purely based on my forum research and reviews online. In most of the reviews I checked out, I had read about the punchiness of the bass response and the overall 'fullness' of the speaker. For some reason, the pair that I have seem to be lacking in this department, so I'm thinking I'm doing something wrong with placement, or am just using too cruddy an amplifier for the time being. I am right now temporarily using an older Yamaha A/V receiver (RX-V690) to power them with until I purchase a good integrated amp. (See my other thread looking for good recommendations... ) It supposedly is rated at 8 ohms (80W/ch) and at 6 ohms (85W/ch). Also, I am using some generic 16 gauge speaker wire for the time being to connect them, which I realize is probably not optimal. I have the speakers placed about 8 inches away from the wall in a room that is almost 13 feet deep and 19 feet wide. The speakers are about 8 feet apart. Our "listening couch" is about 8 feet away from that same wall. The speakers exhibit great presence and clarity in the midrange and highs but really seem to fall off significantly in the lows and low-mid regions. It almost sounds with certain recordings as if the speakers are out of phase, but I've double-checked and they are connected properly. I also am not getting as much of a "3D"-type of image as I had hoped, even after experimenting with toe-in and toe-out. Also FWIW, my speakers have the bi-wire terminals, so I have my speaker wire connected to a single pair of terminals with jumpers. Is this simply just a case of my receiver being too 'weak' to do these speakers justice? Or am I losing all of that sonic information simply due to placement and cruddy speaker wire? I really had high hopes that these speakers would excite me; I just want to make sure the issue is my other gear as opposed to my having chosen the wrong speaker. Thanks in advance for any advice! I'm new to the hobby and am trying to learn all I can.

[putz]

Hey RM, Putz again. Is the Yamaha a 2 Channel or HT receiver? I powered my Songtowers with a Yamaha RX 1800 when I first got them. Make sure you put the receiver in the 6 Ohm mode and also use the Pure Direct mode if available so you bypass all the HT effects. You could also pick up some lower gauge speaker wire at Home Depot for a few bucks just to rule that out.

Also possible that the shipping damage may have affected the sound. Make sure all the drivers are working.

Keep playing around with placement.

Other Salk users will probably chime in with better suggestions. You might want to mention where you're located in case someone lives nearby.

[Austin08]

Did you forget to check the crossover for front speaker? Try to take the jumper out and plug you speaker cables to the low input of the speaker. Play your music, if the bass is still not improve then try a bigger or a better bi_wire cable. If nothing change then maybe that the way it is or the internal of the speakers was damaged during shipping. As far as lack of soundstage. Try to pull your speakers away the wall further. Don't be suprise, some speakers need to be 3 or 4 feet way from the wall to sound best. Just my 2cts.

[Big Red Machine]

To be brutally honest, that receiver is not up to the task.  It will make sound, but you need headroom and decent power supplies with some more wattage.

Most ST's are not bi-wireable.  If these are, make sure the two positives and negatives are tied together.

Also, did they take a serious hit and perhaps something dislodged inside?  Unlikely, but possible.

[coke]

Make sure the receiver is on direct and playing full range. 

What speakers did these replace?  The songtowers are very impressive for their size, but it's possible you are expecting too much from them. 

[rockadanny]

"3D"-type of image

For 3D image, many speakers need to be pulled away from the front wall a few feet (2-4), not inches. And preferrably not a lot of clutter between them.

[Nuance]

Make sure the receiver is on direct and playing full range. 

 

This is what I was thinking.  If the receiver has the speakers set to small the crossover will engage and limit output below it.  Set the speakers to "Large" or "Full" on the receiver so the crossover is disengaged. 

I am sorry to hear about the speaker damage.

[Donald]

Try the Cardas set-up and see if this doesn't improve soundstage and imaging. You may notice a large improvement. Although, WAF may not be to high.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring

[Saturn94]

It's also very possible that the OP is experiencing a suckout in the bass region due to room acoustics.

Is the bass very weak no matter where you are in the room?  If so, then my second guess would be possible speaker damage, or something miswired (you mentioned it's set up for biwire; I wonder if this mod was done by Salk or the last owner?), or a connection/settings issue.

Given the specs you gave for your setup, I don't think that's the real problem.  While a better/more powerful amp would definately be an improvement, you should be still getting fairly decent bass from your receiver.  Same with the wire; 16 gauge is adequate, though 12 gauge would be better.

[RenaissanceMan]

Thanks for the replies!

Putz, my receiver is an older (outdated) A/V model. It also appears the USA version of the RX-V690 does not have an impedance switch, so there is no 6 ohm mode to select. That is on the Canadian version only. In order to run a '2 channel' mode, essentially you just turn off the DSP, which turns all of the effects off. Doesn't look like I can split up the wattage any other way but how they already have it allocated to all 5 channels (2 fronts, 1 center, and 2 rears).

Austin08, I did the test you suggested and just ran the lower terminals. This essentially isolated everything beneath the lower crossover point and I was able to confirm the speakers/crossover were operating correctly. All drivers are operational, as well.

rockadanny, I think I am suffering some with that, as well. We have a couple of console shelves mated in between the speakers, and our TV sits on top of one of them. I'm sure this is not helping the 3D imaging, whatsoever.

BigRedMachine, I think you are correct in that a better amplifier solution is definitely going to improve things.


So, I did some more experimentation with them after confirming everything was operational and was able to make some significant improvements. By simply turning up the bass knob a few db on my Yamaha, it made a dramatic improvement on the fulness of the sound. I'm one of those folks who likes to leave settings flat as much as possible, but I think given the limitations with my gear and cabling right now I'm going to have to compensate with EQ, etc. Also, I did experiment with moving the speakers farther away from the wall and it did make a significant difference. I have them 12" from the wall now and the bass is definitely punchier. The fronts of the speakers are now farther out in front of my console and it seems they are now 'breathing' better. With current configuration, I can't put them any farther without them being in the way. I'm still not getting the 'swimming in sound' feeling I was hoping for, but it definitely helped with the low end. Toe'ing them in/out didn't really seem to make much of a difference in imaging. In fact, low end seemed to diminish some when I did that. The bummer in all this is that I'm learning quickly that the setup limitations in my room are going to significantly compromise the quality of the sound I'm looking for. For now, it's a significant improvement, and at least I know the SongTowers do indeed sound good.  I'm honestly not sure at this point if I need to be looking at a pair of speakers that are designed to be closer to the wall, but I'm going to keep experimenting with placement to see if I can get more soundstage in spite of our setup...

Thanks for the help so far, everyone-

[RenaissanceMan]

Donald and Saturn, looks like you replied while I was typing my reply. Just now seeing your posts. I will read over the Cardas setup stuff and see if I can get close with the room/furniture in its current configuration. Saturn, see my last post. Bass response definitely improved with placement and fiddling with the bass knob on my receiver.

Is it 'bad' to use onboard EQ generally speaking? Don't you introduce amplified distortion that way?

[qwknuf6]

Check you AVR settings

Make sure DRC is set to off,set dynamic range to MAX.

Mark

[Martyn]

You've no doubt checked that your speakers are in phase with each other, but I thought it was worth mentioning. You could try reversing one pair of speaker wires just in case...

[srb]

Is it 'bad' to use onboard EQ generally speaking? Don't you introduce amplified distortion that way?

Generally speaking, but while you are using the receiver if the overall sound is more pleasing with bass boost then it is 'good'.
 
I couldn't tell from your last post if you had checked that the front speakers were set to 'Large' or not, as was previously suggested.  Usually the default is set to 'Small' with an 80Hz crossover, so if that were the case you would be hearing a definite lack of bass without a subwoofer filling in the bottom octave.
 
Steve

[vortrex]

I found that adding bass traps increased the bass performance of my ST's.  I also have mine about 12" from the rear wall, 8' apart, and with a 3' tall audio rack between them.  your room size is almost identical to mine.  I wonder how much bass you are expecting?  I'd like to think I have some pretty good electronics at this point but the bass is not the impressive part of these speakers.

[Kinger]

What speakers did you own before the ST's?  Maybe the lack of low end is just a difference in how the bass is presented.  Bass from a ported speaker can sound quite different from bass from a TL design like the ST's.  It could just be that even though many like (love) the ST's, they just are not the right speaker for you.  Nothing wrong with that........

[RenaissanceMan]

Generally speaking, but while you are using the receiver if the overall sound is more pleasing with bass boost then it is 'good'.
 
I couldn't tell from your last post if you had checked that the front speakers were set to 'Large' or not, as was previously suggested.  Usually the default is set to 'Small' with an 80Hz crossover, so if that were the case you would be hearing a definite lack of bass without a subwoofer filling in the bottom octave.
 
Steve

Steve, I honestly am not seeing any sort of controls on the Yamaha that would allow me to choose. Looks like I can only turn the DSP on or off. There are a handful of settings for effects for stereo (Hall, Jazz Club, etc, etc) and some more settings for surround. I looked through the manual and didn't see anything like that in there, either... Am I missing something obvious?

Mark, I'm not seeing any settings for DRC or dynamic range, either..?? Maybe my receiver is even more lame that we thought.

[jsalk]

It sounds like you are making progress.  But that does not rule out the possibility that there was shipping damage to either on of the woofers or the crossover.  Since your speakers can be bi-wired, one thing you might try is to run each speaker's woofer section independently.  If you have a balance control (which you probably don't), you could switch back the forth between the woofer sections and see if one sounds different than the other.  If you don't have balance control, you could simply have someone connect and disconnect each speaker's woofer section from the amp while you listen for differences.  If there is any shipping damage, it is doubtful that both speakers sustained the same damage.  So by comparing the sound of each woofer section, you should be able to tell of they both sound the same or not.  (If you do this in mono, it is a more reliable test.)

Confirm that both woofers are working well in each speaker.  If the spider in a given woofer becomes detached from the frame, it will still move in and out with the sound.  But it will be moving out of phase since it is the backwave from the working driver that will be moving the cone.  This, of course, will cut way down on the bass output even though it appears outwardly as if both drivers are working.

If something is not working in the woofer section (it sounds like that is where you are having an issue), there are only two things that could go wrong.  Either a driver is not working properly, or there is damage to the crossover.  By comparing the woofer output of both speakers, you will usually be able to tell if there is a problem somewhere since it is unlikely that both speakers would be damaged in the same way.

If both woofer sections sound the same, the problem is likely upstream from the speakers or room-dependent.

In terms of placement near the rear wall, transmission line speakers are among the most flexible in that regard.  Ported speakers are far more sensitive to placement issues near room boundaries.  So it is somewhat doubtful that you will be able to improve things in this regard.

If you still require more bass, chances are that a sub will be your best option.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

[Nuance]

I don't see a subwoofer out on the back of the receiver, so I guess that explains the lack of crossover and speaker size menus.  Whether the speakers are damaged or not, I highly recommend a more current, more powerful receiver.

[ArthurDent]

RM - I wouldn't say the receiver is lame, just dated. I'm using an RX-v590 which should be relatively similar (lower wattage I'm guessing), on my living room 'ht' system. I've just purchased a new replacement to take advantage of 5.1, as the V590 will only do surround. So with 5.1 it appears to default to 2 ch stereo. The manual notes Laser Disk players as one possible external connection which should give a hint to the age factor. (purchase date I have noted on the manual is 3/97)

It appears from my manual that you should have the Balance control to run the test Jim notes. While I haven't driven my Song Towers with it, I am currently using my Song Surround Is with my Song Center on the front end with good results. It's not in the league with most of the systems here, and if you are comparing to newer systems you've heard sound-wise it's probably not up to expectations, but it's more likely the receiver's limitations than the Song towers. I'm shuffling gear at the moment in an effort to simply systems, but when I had my combo 2 ch/HT system set up the folks I had over for auditions felt the STs hit the mark for their price. A couple bought them, another bought the somewhat obsure QWs (a very nice speaker as well).

With regards to the bass, it may well be a perception of what the bass should sound like. Given the STs only have mid-woofers they're not going to sound like a speaker with a 8" or 10" true woofer, but they are true to what you would hear from a bass in a live setting (imo). One listener noted to me later that he didn't enjoy the bass on his car system on the way home as it seemed pumped up out of reason. It's largely a matter of taste as is most of this hobby, or addiction, as the case may be. The receiver has a sub-out feed, so you might pick up a reasonably priced sub, or borrow one from a friend, and see if that fills in a gap you feel is missing.

Best of luck working out the kinks, sorry to hear about the damage. That's truly rare given how Jim's folks package things.