Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 4829 times.

audiojerry

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1354
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« on: 3 Feb 2003, 08:35 pm »
Danny,
When I get my Criterions back ( :wink: ), I was wondering if it would be a good idea to limit the frequencies sent to the Criterions to 60hz and higher with the use of a high quality, large value cap before the midbass driver, and then finding a suitable subwoofer to handle frequencies below that.

The other option would be to use a much smaller cap placed between the preamp and amp to similarly limit the frequencies, and then running a powered subwoofer from the preamps second pair of outputs.

My main purpose would be to try relieve the Criterions from the burden of trying to produce low bass notes. I don't like the idea of using a high pass filter on powered subwoofers because they are of such poor quality.

I was wondering if you had any opinions on this.

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 12768
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Low bass
« Reply #1 on: 3 Feb 2003, 09:22 pm »
It would not hurt to remove the low from them if done correctly.

I would not want to add a large value cap in line with them. Then everything including the high frequencies would have to pass through this cap.

The large cap value would also only be a 6db per octave electrical roll off. They already have a 20db per octave acoustic roll off.

And yes the passive networks found on most sub amps are of the lowest quality and I would never consider using them at all either.

I would use a high quality active network before the amp, and would go for something that was 24db per octave or at least 18db per octave and set to about 50 to 55Hz. This would let them play to there lower limit and still keep them from ever seeing their mechanical limit in even high powered conditions.

audiojerry

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1354
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #2 on: 3 Feb 2003, 09:43 pm »
Thanks Dan, I may try active crossovers again, but my previous attempts degraded transparency in my experience. I don't know if it was the quality of the crossover, the extra set of interconnects, or some phase issues caused by the insertion of the active unit. The noise floor of the system also seemed to have gone up.

Regarding the large value cap, I was thinking more in terms of it being in the path of the midbass driver only, and bypassing the tweeter, but your point about the acoustic rolloff of the midbass driver being stronger than the cap would make that a moot point anyways.

Brian Bunge

Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #3 on: 4 Feb 2003, 01:37 am »
Jerry,

You could always go with a custom built sub with one of Adire Audio's HS200 amp.  It has a fully adjustable, 24dB/octave high and low pass filters.  As long asyour preamp has both line level in's and out's it should work quite well.

Danny Richie

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 12768
    • http://www.gr-research.com
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #4 on: 4 Feb 2003, 03:58 am »
Quote
Thanks Dan, I may try active crossovers again, but my previous attempts degraded transparency in my experience.


I have experienced that with some units as well.

I wish I knew of a higher quality unit to recommend.

I still have an old Sledgehammer unit here that I use on occasion. It is not a bad sounding unit but still not as good as nothing in the signal path.

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #5 on: 4 Feb 2003, 04:32 am »
i have found my marchand xm9L 24db/octave active x-over to be completely transparent.  as i am on the list to get a demo pair of criterion's, i look forward to trying them, crossed over to my pair of vmps larger subs! :)

regards,

doug s.

audiojerry

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1354
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #6 on: 4 Feb 2003, 05:12 pm »
Doug, that would be good to find out. I hope you try the Criterions both ways with and without crossover in the signal path, and report your impressions.

Brian, if I used Adire's high/low pass filter's, why would I need a second output on my preamp?

Val

Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #7 on: 4 Feb 2003, 05:17 pm »
I know that Danny doesn't think it is a good idea to cross the Criterions over at higher frequencies, but I have had both good and bad experiences with my longtime love of minimonitors and subwoofers. I believe that there are no eternal truths on this, that one doesn't lose much by experimenting and may even gain quite a lot.

The purity of the 5" Criterion woofer response has to be balanced against its lack of realistic bass slam, as it just cannot move much air at low frequencies. On the other hand, the difficulty in blending a subwoofer should be balanced against the improvements it brings in realistic bass reproduction, lower IM and Doppler distortion of the satellites and better soundstaging, provided the crossover electronics are clean enough.

As others here, I am fascinated by the tiny Criterions and look forward to learning more about them.

Val

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #8 on: 4 Feb 2003, 05:34 pm »
jerry, i may try the criterion's full-range, but as my present room is ~26x38, w/openings to two equally large spaces, i'm not sure how the criterions will do in such a big space.  we'll see.  

my comments about no loss of transparency are from my exerience listening both w/and w/o subs, to proacs, totems, & thiels.  in all cases, if transparency were reduced, it was more than made up for by the fact that the woofers of the monitors dint have to strain to play those really low notes.  so, net transparency/detail was if anything, better than w/o the x-over...  

the thiel 3.5's i actually have had in my rig both full-range, and w/the subs.  the proac tablette signature 2000's, & the totem arro's were heard in my rig w/subs, & in a completely different rig w/o...  my present monitors - meret re's - use an eton 7" driver & focal inwerted-dome ti tweet.  these things are really detailed, but i have never run them full-range...

regards,

doug s.

Brian Bunge

Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #9 on: 4 Feb 2003, 05:38 pm »
Jerry,

Sorry, I must be thinking about receivers, not pre/pro's. :(  As long as you can run the preamp outs to the HS200 and then run it's output to your main amps you should be good.

Val

Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #10 on: 4 Feb 2003, 07:48 pm »
My positive experiences closely relates to doug s' specifically with Bag End, Vandersteen and REL subs paired with many different speakers, including Quads.

That's why I found Jonathan Valin's conclusions in his extremely positive Kharma Ceramique 3.2 review (latest TAS) to be very strange, to say the least. It's difficult for me to accept what he says that any subwoofer, no matter which one, always damages the Kharmas sound, in exactly the same places where a good sub improves normal speakers. In that regard, the Kharmas would have to be not only orders of magnitude better than any good soundstaging and imaging small speaker, but also essentially different.

audiojerry

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1354
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #11 on: 4 Feb 2003, 10:28 pm »
Well, I have a pair of Bag Ends and a pair of Earthquake subs just sitting here for 6 months (they don't belong to me). Maybe I should try them out again.
Val and Doug, you make good points.

I also had the ProAc Tab Sigs,  the Tab 2000 Sigs, and the Red Rose R3's. IMHO, the Criterions are far superior: better midrange, better balance, better bass, and can play louder with less congestion.

I really must get them back...

Val

Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #12 on: 5 Feb 2003, 11:58 am »
Bag End reproduce the best bass I've heard, it has pitch definition down to the lowest frequencies, it's not rumbly and it's very easy to blend even with electrostatics. Cons are the (by design) shallow 12dB filters and 95Hz fixed crossover help localize the sub, so you need a pair; the electronics are not transparent, so you have to use a passive high-pass. They are perhaps not powerful enough for HT, but plenty good for music.

Please don't keep saying good things about the Criterions, I can't buy them now!

doug s.

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 6572
  • makin' music
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #13 on: 5 Feb 2003, 04:10 pm »
re: crossovers, here's why i am especially fond of the marchand xm-9L.  besides being transparent, the feature of its "damping" wolume pot at the x-over frequency, as well as low-pass & hi-pass pots, makes it  much easier to get your monitors to blend effectively w/the subs.  and, i also use a 12-band graphic equalizer w/spectrum analyzer & mic, to make sure the pots are set at the proper position.

when i was running my electrocompaniet amps, i had the x-over set at 60hz.  flattest response was w/the low-pass set at -6db, the damping pot set at  -2db, & the monitors set at flat.   that damping pot really makes a difference.  i had listened for ~2 months w/my new monitors, before i pulled out the equalizer - the setting was the same for low & hi-pass, but the damping pot was also set at flat.  while i enjoyed the sound, there was something that just wasn't quite right - a bit of congestion, & the soundstage wasn't as stable as i felt it should be.  well, the eq showed me the damping pot needed to be backed off to -2db.  it was really amazing how everything jelled.  more detail, better imaging...  just from this li'l -2db tweak...

now, i am running these tiny hotted-up asl wave-8's i got.  well, i couldn't use 'em at all in my large room, w/my 89db-efficient speakers - even w/a 60hz cross to subs, these baby amps yust couldn't cut it.  switching out the 60hz module for a 100hz module made things listenable.  125hz is even better.  having a pair of subs, flanking the monitors (set-up for best soundstage, not highest output), with 24db/octave slopes, means no disconnect between sub & monitor, even at an x-over point as high as 125hz.  and, the larger vmps' can put out plenty of spl's, even when out in the room. :wink:  

anyway, w/the asl toob mono's, & a different x-over point, it was time to pull out the eq again.  i'd been enjoying them for about two weeks, but i knew the system needed to be dialed in again.  now, to get the best response, i have the low pass at -6db, the damping pot reduced as far as it will go, which is about -5db (i'm guessing, the scale only reads to -4db), and the hi-pass at -3db.  it took me ~45 minutes of futzing to get this set-up properly.  1st time, it only took 5 minutes.  nothing like 45 minutes of decent-volume pink noise to get the houshold pissed-off at ya!  :)

the next morning at work, i got a call from the wife:  "i dunno what ya did last nite, but, man does it sound awsome in here, now!"   :wink:

well, the ec's are packed up, to go to the ups drop-off today, the tri-tube mesa baron amp was shipped out to me yesterday...  next week i wil find out what *real* tube amplification sounds like!   :D  and, likely, x-over point will get dropped back down to 60-80hz, and the eq/spectrum analyzer will get pulled out again...  as it will, when the criterion's show up! :wink:

doug s.

Nikko

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 62
Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #14 on: 28 Feb 2003, 07:45 am »
Like Doug I use a Deluxe Marchand XM9 and I'm crossing over my 1801s at 80hz. It sounds wonderful. The XM9 is extremely transparent. I also run a Sonic Craft SCC-300 driver in a sealed 4 cu. ft. enclosure driven by a Hafler SE240 amp. It sounds so good I never listen without the sub.

I'm also on the audition list and, according to Danny, should be seeing the Criterions in three weeks or less. I intend to experiment with the Criterions filtered at 80 & 100hz.

Val

Keeping Bass Frequencies away from the Criterions
« Reply #15 on: 28 Feb 2003, 12:47 pm »
I'll be waiting for what you have to say about the giant killer, Jeff.

Val