B&K, Sunfire, Outlaw, or Aragon

screamingelvises · « **on:** 5 May 2004, 08:05 pm »

I am currently running A B&K Ref10 Preamp with a Forte Model 5 Amp (used to be part of Threshold) for the mains and an Adcom 2535 bridged to 3 channels for the center and rears. I have Mirage M1295is main speakers, an MCsi center and Mirage Ohm series rear surrounds with a Boston Acoustics PV1000 subwoofer. I have an old Nakamichi MB-3 CD player and a Philips SACD 1000 DVD, single disc CD/Superaudio CD player. I have this running through various MIT, Monster and ZuCable wires mostly going into a Panamax box.

I am considering 200WX5 (or 7) per channel amps from B&K, Sunfire, Outlaw and Aragon. I want to consolidate my amps without loosing any music quality (It is about 50/50 music to HT). My friend who recently left tweeters after 11 plus years told me that the B&K would give a lot more juice than the Forte but wouldn't be as musical. Several years ago I took an Aragon 8008 home and it was very bright in my older system. I was weary of Outlaw until I heard that ATI makes their amps and I don't know much about Sunfire except that people either love them or have had major issues (like buzzing etc).

Has anyone compared these amps? What were your thoughts? Any suggestions besides take all 4 home and demo them would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Mark

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 May 2004, 08:12 pm »

I may be wrong, but I don't think ATI makes outlaws amps. I think they're manufactured in house. I don't know anyone who owns one, so I can't help you much there.

Since their purchase by the parent company of Klipsch, I've heard Aragon's service has slipped, but supposedly the quality is still good. There are a couple really good buys on demo/open box Aragon theater amps right now @ http://www.audioadvisor.com.

I think Satrat runs a Sunfire, you might wanna PM him. I know his pre/pro is, & I think the amp is, too.

wshuff · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 May 2004, 08:34 pm »

With respect to Outlaw/ATI, this topic has been discussed and argued many times. I believe that the Outlaw amp is manufactured in the same facility that makes the ATI amps, but the design itself is Outlaw's. If you are interested in getting to the bottom of that, I'd try a search on AVS. I know it's been discussed/argued there.

mgalusha · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 May 2004, 11:15 pm »

I believe wshuff is correct, the Outlaw is made in the same plant at the ATI but is not the same design. I have owned an Outlaw 750 (their first amp) for nearly 4 years and it's performed flawlessly. My HT is used primarily for movies but I do listen to some music on that system. While not as good as my 2 channel system, it's not bad either. I havn't heard any of the newer Outlaw stuff but as I mentioned, mine has been bulletproof.

mike g

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 May 2004, 11:17 pm »

They do occasionally have some B-stock deals, too. Might be worth checking out. Their $-per-watt ratio is pretty hard to beat. I've actually contemplated a M-200 for center channel use, but I just haven't been able to get any feedback on the quality/reliablity of it.

screamingelvises · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 May 2004, 02:10 pm »

Which one do you think would be the most musical? Which one would be best for movies? Which one would be the most reliable (I don't want any humming issues)? There may be different answers for each question. I can get all of them for between $1,200 and $1,999.

wshuff · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 May 2004, 05:11 pm »

I have a Sherbourn amp, which I've used for going on four years. I know that isn't one of the amps on your list, but I mention it for this reason. You inquire about hum issues. Well, when I first got my amp I had no problems, but later, when I added a different pre/pro, I ended up with a hum. I had dedicated eletrical circuits installed just for my electronic gear, and still I had a hum. I tried filters for my cable tv line, no change. Eventually, though, I kept investigating and found that the culprit wasn't the amp or the pre/pro, but a cable used to connect the two. The point is that while there may be hum issues inherent with a design (and I don't know if any of the amps you mention have such issues), I think hum can also be introduced independently. So you may find that you have a hum problem that nobody else has had, albeit one that may in fact be caused by something other than the amp. I'm guessing you know all that, but since I've typed this much, I figure I'll hit submit and wish you look on your search.

KCI-JohnP · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 May 2004, 10:13 pm »

Screaming,
I have the Sunfire Signature amp and it is absolutely awesome. Their customer service is also very good. Mine is pushing a pair of Martin Logan Odyssey's as mains, Aeons as surrounds and the Theater center. Many amps would flat choke on such a load but not my Sunfire. They do not run hot, hardly even warm at all. I highly recommend them.
If you look around you should be able to pick up a used Sunfire Sig. amp(425wpc @8ohms) for not much $$. They are worth every penny.

The Outlaw/ATI are pretty much the same design but with a few differences, the ATI being a bit more refined. As for the other amps you mentioned, I'm not very familiar with them.

satfrat · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 May 2004, 04:04 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

I may be wrong, but I don't think ATI makes outlaws amps. I think they're manufactured in house. I don't know anyone who owns one, so I can't help you much there.

Since their purchase by the parent company of Klipsch, I've heard Aragon's service has slipped, but supposedly the quality is still good. There are a couple really good buys on demo/open box Aragon theater amps right now @ http://www.audioadvisor.com.

I think Satrat runs a Sunfire, you might wanna PM him. I know his pre/pro is, & I think the amp is, too.

I can't speak for Satrat

but SatFrat (that's me

) owns the Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor, VERY musical processor. Especially it's holograghic feature, this in itself sets this pre/pro apart from the rest, IMO. My amps are Butler tube hybrid amps, a totally dynamic amp of 150wpc that matchs up real nice with the Sunfire.

Regards, Robin

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 May 2004, 04:57 am »

Sorry, Satfrat. My spelling could be a bit better!

satfrat · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 May 2004, 05:55 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Sorry, Satfrat. My spelling could be a bit better!

No prob Rob. I'm sure there are those who would say you got it right the first time!

Regards, Robin

witchdoctor · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 May 2004, 02:54 am »

I reccomend you call Mirage and ask a tech support person what amps they use at shows where they demo their speakers. I use the Sunfire TG3 pre/pro and recently heard their Signature amp at the HT show in NYC. It sounded great to my ears driving Tetra speakers in 5 channel. The demoed the movie Drumline and the drums were awesome. I also heard the Outlaw demo as well, powerful, but a not as big and realistic a soundstage, but less $$$ too.

screamingelvises · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 06:46 pm »

My friend that worked (managed) a Tweeters store for 11 years was worried that I would loose a lot of the musical traits moving from my Forte to a B&K 5 channel (they carry), Adcom (used to carry), or Outlaw. He didn't know anything about Sunfire as he had not heard them. He liked Proceed (which they sell) but thought their reliability was questionable and that they were overpriced (even with his discount).

I just don't know what to do. I think I am going to save my pennies maybe find some people in the local area and demo some stuff.

Thanks,
Mark

spectralman · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 01:16 am »

Another amp that's supposed to have some cojones is the Parasound 2205A. There are or were a couple for sale on Agon for around $1200.

vman71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Jul 2004, 02:23 pm »

I run a Sunfire Theater Grand II into a Sunfire Cinema Grand II (225x5). They feed my Klipsch KLF-20 Legend series speakers. I will say that the Sunfire equipment is simply awesome when you consider price/performance. I used to run an Adcom pre-amp and amps set up and wasn't impressed with the power, speed, details and dynamics. When I went to the Sunfire set up, WOW!

IMO

StevenACNJ · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Jul 2004, 11:27 am »

Go over to AVS Forums - Look in the Amps, Receivers, & Processor forums.

There was just a big amp shoot out thread which is interesting reading. There is also a lot of buzz about the new Gemstone amps.

thuway · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Jul 2004, 11:32 am »

Don't forget about the huge insurgence about the new modded Panny Digital reciever, apparently, that amp is supposedly a "diamond in the ruff" so to speak.

screamingelvises · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Jul 2004, 08:01 pm »

Well I did not buy an amp yet, but I did upgrade to a B&K Ref50 Pre-Amp. It is not as user friendly as the B&K Ref10 I also had, but it does sound significantly better when listening to movies in DD, DTS or THX.

I do wish it still used some of the similar surround/ stereo mode defaults that the Ref10 did.

My amp search continues!

Mark