Bitrate improves CD Quality

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adprom

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #40 on: 11 Jan 2012, 11:07 pm »
That just makes me a hobbyist.  I do look back at my generation and listen to the music of my era.  In doing this I find the best recordings to be on vinyl.  Moving forward today with the upgraded techniques in mastering for digital media I find the best recordings to be in digital.  I search for the best recording of that musical event.

This actually makes sense. For the older stuff, the recordings at best are made off of an old master... These can either have been degraded or I have heard of the digital recording simply being made off of an LP. Without even considering other factors like poor mixing it is perfectly reasonable to think that the digital recording will be worse off. So the very best you might expect is that a cd of an old recording might sound close to the LP version. Of course with higher grade recordings, in theory you should be able to exceed that - but someone actually taking the time and effort to do that seems to be the exception.

Ideally today the digital recordings should exceed the LP ones. In many cases they do, however in many cases thanks to recording engineers deliberately distorting the recording to sound half decent on an ipod with 20c headphones, it doesn't always work out that way.

The world is analog.

Even digital computers, when you look "behind the scenes" are analog.  A digital bit is either a 1 "on" or 0 "off".

At it's core, the bit is actually a little transistor circuit that's getting turned on or off.

Moving digital data around can help the system ignore crosstalk or external noise sources (but they're still really there) and impedance control, plane decoupling and noise analysis are all important aspects of proper electronic design whether they're digital, analog, or a mix.

Impedance control, adequate shielding and plane coupling in the digital world are all key elements to having digital systems that work properly.

The assumption that nature works in analogue isn't actually true. There are fields of research particularly in biology and gene research which is finding information is being stored natively in digital formats. There is still a lot of debate about the building blocks of the universe...

As for digital systems, the crosstalk and external noise are still there, but as the data isn't in the analogue domain, as long as those sources of interference are below a certain design tolerance they can be completely ignored. Once they go above that tolerance, there is a certain probability that they will have some sort of impact. There is a line but the logic doesn't follow that digital circuits are based on analogue signals, therefore analogue interference must affect the digital domain. You are right they are still there - but a computer will compute a near infinite amount of data never making a mistake as long as the system remains within its design tolerances. Once it stops doing that, it is broken. So the fact that digital circuits fundamentally use analogue voltage changes is irrelevant when looking at the signals - which is what you are really looking at in audio - the recording and preservation of a signal all the way through to the output.

I've seen attempts to mutilate good engineering theory by trying to confuse the factors that affect digital and analogue before, and all it really does is misinform and confuse those who haven't been educated in that particular field. In particular the bit I bolded doesn't actually add anything or describe anything an Engineer doesn't know - but to someone who doesn't know better they would jump to the conclusion that a digital signal must therefore be compromised in the same way an analogue one is - which is entirely untrue. If it were true, this conversation and the internet as a whole wouldn't be possible as data integrity simply couldn't be guaranteed.

It is true that the enjoyment is in listening - but it doesn't hurt to objectively analyse why it is that something sounds good or bad. That means you also have to identify the subjective factors that affect people such as what they are used to. That is the only way to get true improvement.

redbook

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Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #41 on: 11 Jan 2012, 11:16 pm »
 Appreciate that very concise post . Thanks............... :thumb:

Cheeseboy

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #42 on: 12 Jan 2012, 12:27 am »
It is true that the enjoyment is in listening - but it doesn't hurt to objectively analyse why it is that something sounds good or bad. That means you also have to identify the subjective factors that affect people such as what they are used to. That is the only way to get true improvement.
That is an excellent point.  If a person is only subjected to a studio produced version of what a guitar should sound like and has limited live music listening time then perhaps dynamic range, low distortion and transient speed my be the determining measurments of good sound for that person.  A long life of live listening may make the subject consider other aspects of the guitar in thier hearing.  Be it a warmer sound enjoyed or a clinically perfect sound it is the one that best matches the subjects experience that is the best.   After all we are simply the sum total of our experiences.

nobel

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Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #43 on: 12 Jan 2012, 10:02 pm »

Its funny how people can become dismissive when i said that the transfer of MP3 files onto a cd in my subjective humble opinion sounded as good when played on my system.

 At the end of the day we all can get technical to sway against this and dislodge the notion. But in my many years of collecting analogue and cds what you cant predict no matter how good your playback system is the final poroduction of the  music. Some of it is brilliant and some of it is awful therefore much depends on the engineer and the pressing.
My system after many a painstacking years is all Bryston. It is neither a warm or a clinical system and am happy with it. The whole process is subjective and is determined not only by the music played but by my own ears. I am thus loathed to be told how a piece of music should sound because the law of  physics   ( especially Adcoms) long account wants to prove that ther is only one way because science says so. If i had it my way the best recordings ever made and are a pleasure on my modern system are the jazz records of the 1940s and 1950s which is as best you can get in analogue.
If technology has so advanced then why are there as many crap recordings as good ones.

All i can say on this topic is bitrate or no bitrate , whether i have downloaded and loss resolution is immaterial. In many of these instances the recording has become brighter which was better than the original recording as modern technology does not endorse tone controls. In the end it is not about me being used to trash recordings . If that was the case I would not have brought a £20,000 system. It is about improving sounds which the system cant improve upon. The analogue / cd debate and now the book/Kindlel download will go on for many an hour.BUt  the crux is what you perceive is good to your eye and ear not what physics dictate.

Cheeseboy

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #44 on: 12 Jan 2012, 11:46 pm »
Every year I give the family my Christmas list.  The kids will look for something cheap for me.  This year I laundry listed about 10 CD's.  I am amazed at the crappy sound of half of them.  I don't remember the originals sounding that bad.  It's always something.  On the other hand one of the CD's was a stone cold wicked stunner.  It was unexpected to sound that good.  Best of Led Zepplin, Remastered, The Mothership.  Can't get enough of this double cd set.

It is all about the engineering on these older CD's.  The Bob Dylan, Remastered, Highway 61 was just so so.  The Best of Three Dog Night was rockin good.  It's not the system.  I had a surfing accident and just had to have my hearing checked.  It's not me.  I certainly can't blame the bitrate. 

robb

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #45 on: 13 Jan 2012, 02:50 am »
So I assume that all us audiophiles attend live concerts regularly, whether its classical, jazz, rock, soloists, etc.

We then come back to our home systems and work toward getting them to approach what we heard in the live concert. It doesn't matter what age we are. The source could be via cd, lp, computer files,  analog tape, etc.

The bottom line: Does the trumpet we heard live, sound the same on the recording played back on our home system?

Rob


adprom

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #46 on: 13 Jan 2012, 02:56 am »
Its funny how people can become dismissive when i said that the transfer of MP3 files onto a cd in my subjective humble opinion sounded as good when played on my system.

Couple of different things here... No one is being dismissive. There is no issue with discussing the scientific reasons with why something is... The entire process of recording a signal and playing it back is a scientific one after all... Listening is a subjective quality but how something gets played back and the preservation of the signal is scientific. A simple fact, that is easily proven is that if you convert a lossless file to mp3, it will lose signal accuracy. That is not an opinion, but an undeniable fact. By definition, the signal just can't be as accurate. No different from recording from one VHS tape to another. It is a lossy process.

If you liked it more, then you obviously liked the distortion characteristic that it applied compared to the original. There is nothing wrong with that - different people like different things. Talking about signal accuracy is a science though.

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I am thus loathed to be told how a piece of music should sound because the law of  physics   ( especially Adcoms) long account wants to prove that ther is only one way because science says so. If i had it my way the best recordings ever made and are a pleasure on my modern system are the jazz records of the 1940s and 1950s which is as best you can get in analogue.

So what has been discussed here is signal accuracy in reproduction... In fact, given that science is what made it possible, it is a scientific process. Audio equipment didn't come to be a different way. It isn't my way.... It is because there is no other way and there is no other explanation. You can't purchase equipment which is based on good science and engineering, and then ignore those factors when comparing different equipment or formats. That turns the quest into a religious one rather than object. At that point you are arguing 'belief' because that's what people want to believe.

As said, what I have stated for the most part isn't an opinion, it isn't my intellectual property but facts about the signals and systems involved. It isn't because I believe one thing sounds better than another - I have been careful to refer to 'accuracy' for that reason... What people like is subjective and what is most accurate, isn't necessarily the way they like it...

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If technology has so advanced then why are there as many crap recordings as good ones.

This was mentioned before and the answer is simply that signal quality is not what drives a lot of audio engineering. A lot of it is marketing as was referred to within the wiki article that referred to the loudness war and compression of the dynamic range. Secondly to that, popular music for example is deliberately distorted to sound good on a technically inferior pair of cheap headphones on an ipod, or computer speakers. The result is that when played through a far more accurate system, you hear the flaws with that distortion. In other words, it is marketing decisions that are causing the issues - not the science.

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In many of these instances the recording has become brighter which was better than the original recording as modern technology does not endorse tone controls.

Which is exactly what I spoke about... Modern digital technology does not have the same distortion characteristics (although it can have a couple of its own under certain conditions - i.e. jitter) that some of the older technology has. So while you have a more accurate signal, some people are more comfortable with the older technology because it produces the sound they are used to, not the sound that is more accurate. That is fine.

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BUt  the crux is what you perceive is good to your eye and ear not what physics dictate.

Absolutely. But it is worth identifying the science behind what makes it sound good or bad for certain people. I don't think it benefits anyone to ignore facts behind what is going on - otherwise you won't get improvement in the equipment.

SoundGame

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #47 on: 13 Jan 2012, 03:14 am »
If we take this debate on digital vs. analogue to an extreme - you could argue that even analogue is not a constant waveform but at the atomic or sub-atomic level it is all bits put closely together but not a continuous stream...this would go for vinyl, tape or it could also be argued for live sound.  You could even argue that our ears, which pick up the vibrations send that information via bio-electrical impulses to our brain - again packets, and at some level they are granular bits.  It's bits and more bits anyway you look at it but what make the difference is how close those bits are together and how uniform the wave is. 
 
Digital and analogue are both made up of bits - digital technology has just not got to the point where the bits are close enough together to perfectly mimic the analogue - but it's close - very close and getting closer every day.

nobel

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Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #48 on: 13 Jan 2012, 10:34 am »


 Thanks Adprom. i appreciate what you are saying. It is just that over the years especially when purchasing hi- fi you get alot of hi- fi buffs who think they know it all and priase pieces of equipment where on listerning you wonder what the fuss is about. Also writers in magazine are the same.

I wonder if someone can help me then. If the cd is on its last legs and you have to purchase from the internet what mode of download should i look out for that will allow my Bryston to perform for the next 10 - 15 years. Companys such as Amazon etcc downloads are not that great when played on the Bryston but acceptable on a portable.

Any suggestions. Most downloads are MP3 i think.

Cheeseboy

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #49 on: 13 Jan 2012, 04:43 pm »
Does the trumpet sound like a trumpet?  It should.
 
There are so many viariables along the way to that being so.   
Recording, mixing, mastering, copying, downloading, storing, converting then playing through a signal path wrought with impedence mismatches that result in dynamic range and frequency response shortfalls.   The process has come a long way.  We have moved from mechanical to a digital process.  While there is still much to learn about the newly discovered challenges like ripple and jitter in the digital domain we are very far ahead of where we were.  This part of the chain is moving forward very well. 

The rest of the chain is my concern.  After the mastering is where the industry needs help.  How is it that a downloaded MP3 can sound better than the original cd?  And yet it happens.  As adprom points out the pure science of bits and compression are well documented.  As Nobel points out He has heard great sounding MP3's. 


*Scotty*

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #50 on: 13 Jan 2012, 05:25 pm »
nobel you've got in one, we are probably screwed. Degraded online downloads have exceeded the sales of CDs. Many CDs are now generated on demand and sold in the form of a CD-R, not the most durable form of data storage, it is doubtful that these are archival quality CD-Rs. I have more than once found that no CD exists for a new piece of music at all and it is only available as a mp3 download.
 We have always been a fringe market for music and we are now seeing the consequences of our position in the food chain and the change in how music is used by the consumer.
Scotty

Cheeseboy

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #51 on: 13 Jan 2012, 07:28 pm »
We are screwed.  We all have to download more Hi Res so the industry can see a rising trend in sales.

sfraser

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #52 on: 14 Jan 2012, 06:21 pm »
So I assume that all us audiophiles attend live concerts regularly, whether its classical, jazz, rock, soloists, etc.

We then come back to our home systems and work toward getting them to approach what we heard in the live concert. It doesn't matter what age we are. The source could be via cd, lp, computer files,  analog tape, etc.

The bottom line: Does the trumpet we heard live, sound the same on the recording played back on our home system?

Rob

One thing that I always found interesting about using live music as a reference. With the exception of orchestras most live music is electrically amplified, using guitar amps and PA systems etc. And usually this takes place in an environment that is not conducive to accurate sound reproduction. Now lets take a look at those PA speakers..... 20-20KHz flat response does not come to mind.   Dynamic range and high output does.

I love live music , I dont get to attend as many live  shows as I would like anymore but I  probably have at least a 100 Grateful dead concerts on my server.  I believe most home HiFi's are much closer at  reproducing studio recording, as  home speaker designs are much closer to master control rooms speakers than PA's systems.

I have three systems at home, the 1st is using PMC speakers the 2nd has PSB Stratus Gold's and the 3rd has Klipsch LaScala's. My wife loves live music, in fact the only way I can get her to listen  to blues or guitar oriented rock is live at a club or concert hall. She also attends at lot of orchestra concerts. Interestingly she also likes the Klipsch LaScala system   way more  than the other speakers. It's the only system in the house where she will stop listen and say "wow that sounds good". I think she really does reference recorded music to live music , hence the bias towards the horn loaded Lascala's which share many attributes of the PA speakers.



Cheers,

redbook

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Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #53 on: 14 Jan 2012, 07:52 pm »
  I think that's part of my love affair with JBL. The dynamics are effortless. :thumb:

Netdewt

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Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #54 on: 14 Jan 2012, 09:12 pm »
Not sure I understand the OP's original question, but I can tell a difference between 128 and 320. I think the difference how flat the music sounds. Music ripped to ALAC sounds even more 3 dimensional. There's just a lot more weight in the music. Besides, it's just nice to know you have the music as close to the original as you can get it.

Regarding vinyl vs. digital. I like both. :)

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/mp3-sound-quality-test-128-320/

Cheeseboy

Re: Bitrate improves CD Quality
« Reply #55 on: 15 Jan 2012, 02:30 am »
sfraser.

What if you could have the dynamics and spl of a concert PA system and the accuracy and frequency response of the Studio mix down monitors. 

I thought the Klipsch Horn knock offs from Speaker Labs got close but lacked the detail.  I completly understand why your wife likes the La Scalas.  My magnepans paired with a sub lacked the dynamic range. They almost had it all. 

I think I have found the perfect speaker for my needs,  GR Research LS6. 

finaly live music at home.