nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system

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jimdgoulding

Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #20 on: 10 Jan 2012, 03:40 am »

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #21 on: 10 Jan 2012, 03:42 pm »
http://www.modwright.com/gallery/album.php?s=the-modwright-shop

First and second pictures.  Be well.

Jim-
Are you trying to show me some room treatments?  Or are you just telling me to get a bigger room?  :)
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2012, 01:07 am by nnck »

vinyl_lady

Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #22 on: 10 Jan 2012, 09:55 pm »
nnck,

Congratulations on a great purchase. Those DA-1.1s look awesome! As I think I indicated in our PM exchange, the DA-1.1s are great for off axis listening. That is the primary reason I chose the DA-1.1s over the Ulysses--I wanted a wider "sweet spot" and do a lot of off-axis listening. Enjoy your new speakers. As you are finding out, they are a great match with the ModWright amp.

Laura

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #23 on: 11 Jan 2012, 01:03 am »
nnck,

Congratulations on a great purchase. Those DA-1.1s look awesome! As I think I indicated in our PM exchange, the DA-1.1s are great for off axis listening. That is the primary reason I chose the DA-1.1s over the Ulysses--I wanted a wider "sweet spot" and do a lot of off-axis listening. Enjoy your new speakers. As you are finding out, they are a great match with the ModWright amp.

Laura

Laura-
Thanks. And you are right about the Modwright. In fact, I just changed the name of my thread to "nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system". It's just that I have been so excited about these new speakers. But about a year ago, I was just as excited about getting the new Modwright equipment as well.

The speaker break-in is coming along very well. They have nearly 200 hours on them already! (actually a bit over 200 if you can count the break-in Lou started at his shop before he sent them out). My initial impressions still concentrate on the smoothness of the high end. And with the added break-in, I can really understand what people mean about the 'dynamics' of these speakers. I think it's basically what I have been calling a 'fullness' to the sound. With most of the hi-end speakers I have auditioned, the sound is often very resolved and detailed. But what was lacking was the realistic 'attack' and 'decay' to the music in the right places.

I was listening to some of Eddie Prevost's masterful use of the drum kit in the entirely improvisational band AMM last night. The pieces I was listening to were recorded in the early 80s, and they have a sort of free-jazz feel to them. His percussion work isnt particularly loud or noisy here. It's much more restrained and balanced. And yet somehow it still manages to sound just ferocious coming out of these speakers. That's when the term 'dynamic' really hit me. Even throughout much of the quieter passages, the proper sound of the attack and decay of the percussion sounds are amazing. This I feel, gives a very heightened sense of realism to the whole listening experience.

jimdgoulding

Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #24 on: 11 Jan 2012, 12:01 pm »
Jim-
Are you trying to show me some room treatments?  Or are you just telling me to get a bigger room?  :)
None of the above but that is funny :wink:.  Meant only to illustrate what I'm taking about.  That's your room scaled up with the approximate speaker placement I've suggested trying.

jriggy

Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #25 on: 11 Jan 2012, 03:51 pm »
None of the above but that is funny :wink:.  Meant only to illustrate what I'm taking about.  That's your room scaled up with the approximate speaker placement I've suggested trying.

Agreed
You have great room dimensions and alot of fine gear, so optimal room set-up would give you much better results for your investment.

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus based 2-channel system
« Reply #26 on: 11 Jan 2012, 05:05 pm »
Agreed
You have great room dimensions and alot of fine gear, so optimal room set-up would give you much better results for your investment.

jriggy and jim- I dont disagree with you. This still might be something I try some day down the road. But there are a lot of little complicating things about placement in that direction that you probably cant see unless you understood everything about the room and it's functions.

But I have a couple questions right off the bat:
Right now the speakers are 8 ft apart, pulled out 1.5 ft from the wall, and I still sit 10ft back when I do critical listening. Isn't this pretty close to ideal for these speakers already? What could I really gain by going the other direction? (I ask in all seriousness, as I consider the idea and re-arranging the entire room).

Also, in order for me to place everything I need in this room with the speakers in the other direction, I'll be going from sitting 10 ft back from the speakers currently, to having to sit about 18-20 ft back (looks like I could get the speakers to be about 10 ft apart). Would 18-20 ft be sitting too far back? How far back from the speakers should you be sitting ideally anyway?

jimdgoulding

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #27 on: 11 Jan 2012, 06:09 pm »
a) Your triangle is very good but your speakers AND ears are close enough to their back walls that it is influencing the sound (in room frequency response where it matters- at your head) and your speakers ability to let thru a stage when it is part of a recording.  Reflected waveforms are arriving too early;

b) Were you able to place your speakers 8' apart from their center (3' off your side walls) AND sit between 8' to 10' away, then reflected waveforms won't be arriving too soon and corrupt the spaciousness IN a recording and its 3D imagery.  You will notice greater expansiveness and reach-out-and-touch-it rounder imagery within.

Whatever is in the recording.  Of course, in many studio recordings, instruments are patched in at the mixing board and ambience is artificially created.  So, may not be as much benefit there. 


« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2012, 08:27 pm by jimdgoulding »

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #28 on: 11 Jan 2012, 11:09 pm »
b) Were you able to place your speakers 8' apart from their center (3' off your side walls) AND sit between 8' to 10' away...

Still a little confused, Jim. Because frankly, I am already doing this.

Unless you mean that you think the speakers should be 3' away from the wall behind them (currently I'm at 1.5' away). But another thing I should point out is that Lou and some other users have mentioned a few times that the DA 1.1 is not quite as sensitive to placement away from the walls as something like the Ulysses (another point in my decision to go with DA 1.1 vs Ulysses).

Regardless of all that, I'd like to get yours and others impressions of my initial question. Let me phrase it again: What would be more ideal: A) having speakers 8' apart, 1.5' from the wall behind them and sitting 10' away (current placement) or B) having speakers 10' apart, about 3' from the wall behind them and sitting 18-20' away. I'm curious what you think because it would have to be one way or the other in order to get everything else in the room to fit properly for us. My main concern here is the distance I would have to sit away if the speakers were in the other orientation.

rpf

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #29 on: 11 Jan 2012, 11:20 pm »
Great gear and a beautiful looking set-up! Enjoy.
« Last Edit: 12 Jan 2012, 02:20 am by rpf »

Zero

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #30 on: 11 Jan 2012, 11:27 pm »
Awesome system.

Honestly? I wouldn't go crazy with room treatments in that kind of space and with those kind of speakers.  Maybe something like a simple GIK 242 panel in between the speakers...  but little more than that. Anyways - that's just my take on things.  Enjoy the music!



jimdgoulding

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #31 on: 12 Jan 2012, 12:21 am »
Apologies, my man.  I couldn't tell from the pictures or diagram what all else is in the room.  I can't imagine why Lou would say that unless it was to make a new customer more comfortable and I sure don't know what he means.  Waveforms is waveforms and bare walls is bare walls.  That's not to say you aren't getting good sound, my assertion is simply that you could get a lot better, circumstances permitting.  Question:  When you say 18' away, do you mean from the wall or the plane of the speakers?  If it is from the wall and your speakers are out 4' from the the back of their cabinets, then you would be sitting approx 12' to 13' from the plane of the speakers.  That's going to eat up a lot of floor space of your domicile.  I don't know if it's worth it not even if it didn't cause your room is 14' wide and your speakers need to be out from your side walls 15" more or less from the edge of their cabinets.  Haven't been there, haven't done that.  Try it at your leisure if you care to.  If you could sit nearer the apex of an equilateral triangle, then I would be, rather I could be, more encouraged.  But, I think you've had about enough of that.  Ya'll be cool.  jim

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #32 on: 12 Jan 2012, 01:49 am »
Apologies, my man.  I couldn't tell from the pictures or diagram what all else is in the room.  I can't imagine why Lou would say that unless it was to make a new customer more comfortable and I sure don't know what he means.  Waveforms is waveforms and bare walls is bare walls.

No need to apologize Jim. Appreciate the input.

Dont really want to put words in Lou's mouth (maybe he will chime in), but to clarify a bit - He never said that room treatments werent necessary or that placement of the speakers doesnt matter at all. He simply stated that the DA 1.1 was perhaps less dependent on placement in terms of where they stand in regards to rear and side walls than some of his others speakers. I'm sure he didnt mean they wouldnt benefit in some way by optimizing placement.

But back to the issue at hand - When I say that I would need to sit 18-20' away with the speakers in the other orientation, I was actually meaning 18-20' from the plane of the speakers. For reasons I dont want to take the time to explain, the other orientation would require me to put the listening position all the way back down the 25' length of the room, against that far wall. Assuming I have the speakers 3-4' away from the opposite wall, this should make the listening position 18-20' away.

Am I right in assuming that sitting that far away is NOT a good idea? Is it any better or worse than what I am doing currently?

jimdgoulding

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #33 on: 12 Jan 2012, 02:25 am »
That's out of my realm of experience, Nnck, so I couldn't say.  I think side wall treatment would help in that case, but if you must sit with your back against a wall, well, I speculate that would somewhat reduce what I hoped you could gain.  As regards your room, The Modwright picture is what I hoped you could go for in proportion to your room dimensions.  I would be on familiar ground in that case and enthusiastic for the outcome.

Just to double check, if the front of your Dad's were 4' out from the short wall and 8' apart, center to center, could you sit in an 8' equilateral triangle?  That would make your head at about 11' and some change into the room's length.  Much of the same benefits would be there for you and you could see for yourself.  It's all relative.

roadkingraw

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Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #34 on: 12 Jan 2012, 02:56 am »
my question is what do you do with the Acoustic Zen Adagios now?

dodgealum

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Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #35 on: 12 Jan 2012, 03:20 am »
Nick:

To respond to your question based on my experience (not only with my DA-1.1's but with other speakers, systems and rooms as well) I would say your current set up is a good one. I think that sitting 18-20 feet away from your speakers positioned 10 feet apart (and three feet from the wall behind) will not deliver the high quality sound your system is capable of--it will lack immediacy, staging and realism. I would say it would sound more like background music than real musicians playing in your room. Now, if you can set your speakers up on the short wall firing down the length of your room and position them 6 (or more) feet from the rear wall and 10 feet apart and then sit somewhere in the middle of the room about 12 feet from the baffles the sound may exceed what you are getting with your current set up. This is because the speakers will throw a deeper and more realistic soundstage with more room behind them and you may find the bass response is a little cleaner as well (though perhaps leaner which may or may not be to your liking). This might be worth investigating. If you do, I have found Jim Smith's formula of having the distance between the speakers (measured at the tweeter) 83% of the distance to your ears in the listening position to work out pretty nicely. Note: I did not do the math above but am simply guestimating that 10 feet is around 83% of 12 feet. Also, I concur that the DA-1.1's are likely easier to place than the Ulysses however they do benefit from experimentation so I would encourage you to play around with them. Finally, don't do anything until you have got them fully broken in! My two cents.

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #36 on: 12 Jan 2012, 03:31 am »
my question is what do you do with the Acoustic Zen Adagios now?

Well it's a little early to make a decision on that, but selling them a little ways down the road here is a likely scenario (I'll likely start a for sale thread here on AC, but go ahead and PM me if anyone wants to discuss). And dont get me wrong - the Adagios are excellent speakers. I'd highly recommend them to anyone. They are among the most detailed and resolving speakers I have ever heard. They also plumb the deeper frequencies, much like the DA 1.1s, so generally wouldnt require a sub for most people. They simply lack that bit of extra oomph that I had been calling 'fullness', but I now call 'dynamics'. As they often say, they lack that little bit of extra magic, but at a significant cost savings.

nnck

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Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #37 on: 12 Jan 2012, 03:41 am »
Now, if you can set your speakers up on the short wall firing down the length of your room and position them 6 (or more) feet from the rear wall and 10 feet apart and then sit somewhere in the middle of the room about 12 feet from the baffles the sound may exceed what you are getting with your current set up.

This would really only be an option if the only purpose the room served was as my personal listening room. As it stands, the room has other uses and I have to live with those limitations. So it sounds like I am better off keeping thing as they stand. I can play around with moving them a little further/less apart, a few inches further or closer to the wall behind them, and toeing-in (or not) after all is broken in.

FWIW, sitting approx 10' from the speakers and having them 8' apart is pretty close to your magic 83% number already. The main issue from my understanding is that the speakers are still a little too close to the wall behind them (and my seating may be a little too close to the wall behind me as well). Do I have that right?

jimdgoulding

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #38 on: 12 Jan 2012, 03:48 am »
Nothing wrong with your triangle, imo.

vinyl_lady

Re: nnck's Daedalus-Modwright 2-channel system
« Reply #39 on: 12 Jan 2012, 05:48 am »
FWIW, sitting approx 10' from the speakers and having them 8' apart is pretty close to your magic 83% number already. The main issue from my understanding is that the speakers are still a little too close to the wall behind them (and my seating may be a little too close to the wall behind me as well). Do I have that right?

Based on my experiments with speaker location with my DA-1.1s, I don't think the speaker placement from the wall behind them is that big of a problem. You will likely sacrifice a little soundstage depth, but you can get a very acceptable soundstage. After they are broken in, you may want to experiment with slight movements at a time, like a 1/4 inch at a time to find the best bass and midrange integration.

I think Jim Smith's 83% is a good rule of thumb (Jim has a lot of experience setting speakers in a lot of different rooms). I measured my distances the other night and found the distance between my tweeters was very close to 83% of the distance to my ears. It just worked out that way.

I think a bigger issue is with how close the listening position is to the 14' wall behind the listening position. IMO, that wall needs something to disperse/difuse the sound waves. GIK might have something that will work. RPG makes some diffusion panels. In my room I have book and record cases behind the listening position for dispersion and diffusion.

that's my 2 cents FWIW.

Laura