[Stu Pitt]

Mamba,

You're quite true in saying there are bad dealers.  But there are many good ones too.  That model may work very well for AVI, but it's no guarantee it'll for well for everyone else, or even anyone else.

The current market, not just hifi will follow Darwin's rule - survival of the fittest.  Anyone who doesn't evolve and adapt to the market will eventually face extinction.

[SoundGame]

Mamba,

You're quite true in saying there are bad dealers.  But there are many good ones too.  That model may work very well for AVI, but it's no guarantee it'll for well for everyone else, or even anyone else.

The current market, not just hifi will follow Darwin's rule - survival of the fittest.  Anyone who doesn't evolve and adapt to the market will eventually face extinction.

True - though Darwinian mechanics i.e. survival of the fittest, sometime kills the highly specialized and unique species that also have value - though perhaps to a smaller set of clientele.

[srb]

The current market, not just hifi will follow Darwin's rule - survival of the fittest. Anyone who doesn't evolve and adapt to the market will eventually face extinction.

I was interested in a newly released component.  My local dealer didn't have it yet and were unsure exactly when they would receive it.  I said I would give them my name and number and they could call me when it came in.
 
They said it would be easier for me to just call in every few weeks to check.  Seriously?  Although I usually mourn the demise of locally owned businesses, I'm just counting the days to extinction for this one.  Good Riddance.
 
Steve

[john1970]

A few months ago I purchased a pair of Paradigm speakers from a B&M store in central MA.  The owner had in the past few years closed a store closer to Boston.  Moreover, he also mentioned that 90% of his business was over the internet! 

Honestly, we need to ask ourselves the question:  How often does one "need" to purchase a high end audio system?  I was in a local high end dealer describing my system and they said that "that should last you for the next 15 to 20 years"!  Another dealer also mentioned that if it was not for the audiophiles that purchase new gear every two to three years that they would be out of business.  The majority of people cannot afford to buy new gear every couple of years and any business that requires such irresponsible spending is going to have major problems.

[Diamond Dog]

Honestly, we need to ask ourselves the question:  How often does one "need" to purchase a high end audio system? 

Honestly, never. And yet here we all are - what a bunch of scamps ! 

Another dealer also mentioned that if it was not for the audiophiles that purchase new gear every two to three years that they would be out of business.  The majority of people cannot afford to buy new gear every couple of years and any business that requires such irresponsible spending is going to have major problems.

When those dealers go down, they'll be taking manufacturers with 'em because those guys benefit from the gear-flippers and upgraders every bit as much as the dealers. And what necessarily makes those guys " irresponsible "? Maybe their priorities and/or their wherewithall is different from yours or mine but it's their money, no ?

D.D. 

[OzarkTom]

So if every B&M store went out of business tomorrow, would everyone here be happy?

[srb]

So if every B&M store went out of business tomorrow, would everyone here be happy?

No, just the ones that don't give a rat's ass.
 
Steve

[mamba315]

Well Tom, my bad dealer experience was when getting my Stratas from the Gallo dealer.  The problem is that dealer attitudes ultimately hurt the manufacturer.    With no online competition to worry about, the dealer seemed to lack any incentive for good service. 

Maybe the problem was that Gallo insists on only B&M sales.  There should be healthy competition among dealers for business.  All B&M dealers should be allowed to sell online too.  That should fix the bad service issues I experienced.

Edit: This should also allow for margins somewhat under the traditional B&M percentage.  That would still allow smart dealers to stay afloat while providing consumers with better value.

Thoughts?  Come to think of it, this is the model that some manufacturers seem to already have adopted.

[budt]

  You know we all have our "BAD DEALER" experience but in all fairness audiophiles often abuse dealers. Audiophiles take stuff home to audition with absolutely no intention of buying.
 Dealers should charge an in-home audition fee ( imo). I believe that would be fair to everyone. It would also separate the serious buyers from the tire kickers.
  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the highend audio retail business.

[OzarkTom]

  You know we all have our "BAD DEALER" experience but in all fairness audiophiles often abuse dealers. Audiophiles take stuff home to audition with absolutely no intention of buying.
 Dealers should charge an in-home audition fee ( imo). I believe that would be fair to everyone. It would also separate the serious buyers from the tire kickers.
  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the highend audio retail business.

Yep, it is all the tire kickers, year after year, that gives many of those dealers their bad attitude.

[jaylevine]

Hi Folks,

Yes it brings to light a lot of issues with current distribution models and peoples purchasing decisions. I fear the fallout will be severe and a game changer for high end audio.

james

It seems like the cat is already out of the bag on ecommerce and big ticket purchases. They sell very high end cars and motorcycles on eBay Motors site unseen, and I've purchased both a $12K motorcycle and multi thousand dollar electronics on Amazon in the past couple of years (computers). It is just a matter of time before the makers of high end audio make this their major channel given the economics don't support bricks and mortar in all but the largest markets. One thought is if the demo is everything then maybe audio makers should experiment with big mall demo stores?

[HooStat]

The high end market is in a tough place.  Demo'ing things in a showroom is nice but it doesn't allow you to make a good comparison using your own system.  So, if you want something, you have to buy it and hope that you like it.  When you do that, to ensure that you don't lose your shirt, it makes sense to get the lowest price possible.  That way, if you have to resell the item, you don't lose as much.  In short, the buyers are taking on the risk that the dealers used to handle.  That is what the large margins were for -- assuming risk in terms of stock, demo equipment, space, etc.  When the risk shifts, the margins shift too.

A perfect example is the bryston sp3.  I would love to check one out in my system and see if it is really better than my Integra (for example, I didn't love my bryston dac and I sold it).  This is not meant to malign Bryston products -- I own two of their amps and I love their stuff and the company philosophy.  However, I have no way to conveniently assess my purchase options.  Hence, I have to buy something with the burden of reselling it if it doesn't work out for me (for whatever reason).  It is very tough to be a customer in this market too.  There are not many dealers allowing in-home demos. 

I think Audio Advisor has it right -- allow complete in-home auditions.  They take risk on that, and they get financial benefit as well.  I am just not sure how many people think that the premium for that service is worth it.  The buy it cheap and resell it philosophy can be a better strategy for expensive items that are in high demand (sp3 for example).

[budt]

The high end market is in a tough place.  Demo'ing things in a showroom is nice but it doesn't allow you to make a good comparison using your own system.  So, if you want something, you have to buy it and hope that you like it.  When you do that, to ensure that you don't lose your shirt, it makes sense to get the lowest price possible.  That way, if you have to resell the item, you don't lose as much.  In short, the buyers are taking on the risk that the dealers used to handle.  That is what the large margins were for -- assuming risk in terms of stock, demo equipment, space, etc.  When the risk shifts, the margins shift too.

A perfect example is the bryston sp3.  I would love to check one out in my system and see if it is really better than my Integra (for example, I didn't love my bryston dac and I sold it).  This is not meant to malign Bryston products -- I own two of their amps and I love their stuff and the company philosophy.  However, I have no way to conveniently assess my purchase options.  Hence, I have to buy something with the burden of reselling it if it doesn't work out for me (for whatever reason).  It is very tough to be a customer in this market too.  There are not many dealers allowing in-home demos. 

I think Audio Advisor has it right -- allow complete in-home auditions.  They take risk on that, and they get financial benefit as well.  I am just not sure how many people think that the premium for that service is worth it.  The buy it cheap and resell it philosophy can be a better strategy for expensive items that are in high demand (sp3 for example).

    I couldn't agree more......

[Phil A]

  You know we all have our "BAD DEALER" experience but in all fairness audiophiles often abuse dealers. Audiophiles take stuff home to audition with absolutely no intention of buying.
 Dealers should charge an in-home audition fee ( imo). I believe that would be fair to everyone. It would also separate the serious buyers from the tire kickers.
  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the highend audio retail business.

I'm sure there are those (audiophiles) that go over the edge.  But that is the retail business.  I noted that in the thread earlier that retail and dealing with the public is easy.  If one doesn't want to do it, they should not.  A fee that is creditable if one buys within a period of time (e.g 30 days) is not a bad thing.  It may help those decide whether it is right for them.

There are those who like to listen and I don't term that as abuse.  Some people are into cars and want to test drive something even though they have no immediate intention to buy.  They are curious and want some frame of reference vs. what they have now.  I would not term that as abuse either.  If someone walks into the store with the intent to buy on the web and just wants to waste someone's time over and over (vs. say a customer who does buy at the store regularly but wants to spend a bit less on something) without ever buying anything, that's what I would term as abuse.  That happens with theater seating and many other products.  A judicious dealer should ask what they are looking for price wise and a time frame for buying.  If the answer is just looking for now, set them up to listen while you deal with other things.  If it happens multiple times so it is obvious, tell them you have people coming in to look at things and don't have the time or facilities at the moment and ask them to stop back.  Do that a couple of times after they have come to the store and they are less likely to make the trip again.

[jaylevine]

.......  If someone walks into the store with the intent to buy on the web and just wants to waste someone's time over and over (vs. say a customer who does buy at the store regularly but wants to spend a bit less on something) without ever buying anything, that's what I would term as abuse........

 

[rollo]

  As a dealer. Not being a brick and mortar dealer our expenses are much lower. Overheard is low which allows us to offer bigger discounts than others.
 There are many online direct sales for audio. Especially cottage guys. Having a service that offers free in home demo is a win win for all. No salespeople just Audiophiles. Only the buyer decides. We offer zero opinion until asked. You plug it in turn it on listen and determine pressure free if it is to your liking. If so great. If not we made a friend and listened to great music.
  This is not an Ad for me. Just an explanation of other options that vendors might consider in lieu of B&M. If the moderator feels this is inappropiate please remove.


charles
SMA
   

[PRELUDE]

I'm sure there are those (audiophiles) that go over the edge.  But that is the retail business.  I noted that in the thread earlier that retail and dealing with the public is easy.  If one doesn't want to do it, they should not.  A fee that is creditable if one buys within a period of time (e.g 30 days) is not a bad thing.  It may help those decide whether it is right for them.

There are those who like to listen and I don't term that as abuse.  Some people are into cars and want to test drive something even though they have no immediate intention to buy.  They are curious and want some frame of reference vs. what they have now.  I would not term that as abuse either.  If someone walks into the store with the intent to buy on the web and just wants to waste someone's time over and over (vs. say a customer who does buy at the store regularly but wants to spend a bit less on something) without ever buying anything, that's what I would term as abuse.  That happens with theater seating and many other products.  A judicious dealer should ask what they are looking for price wise and a time frame for buying.  If the answer is just looking for now, set them up to listen while you deal with other things.  If it happens multiple times so it is obvious, tell them you have people coming in to look at things and don't have the time or facilities at the moment and ask them to stop back.  Do that a couple of times after they have come to the store and they are less likely to make the trip again.

Good point

[skunark]

I've had very poor success in getting a dealer to provide a demo on a unit that they don't have on the floor.   I probably would have spent a lot more money if they did.    I would be receptive to a dealer/B&M direct relationship.