Is DVD-A "winning" the format war?

pjchappy · « **Reply #40 on:** 11 May 2004, 04:04 am »

I'm still waiting to really make a decision on the subject.

W/ my experience w/ DACs (a MENSA DI/O and a SN TubeDac+) redbook sounds damn good.

I bought a SACD/DVD/CD player (NO DVD-A--a Sony NSP500V) a couple years ago b/c my player crapped out. . .

W/ SACD capability, I never got into the format. . .and I still haven't. My only experience is DSOTM. I just recently bought the 1st Norah Jones SACD. . .but, I didn't know until after I bought it that it doesn't have a 2-channel SACD layer. . .doh!

So, whichever way PF fully goes, it will be worth it for me, and I will go that way!

p

Kishore · « **Reply #41 on:** 11 May 2004, 05:47 am »

Scooter-thank you for the links

I prefer DVDA format too-but all this marketing BS claiming X no: of titles sold in SACD or DVDA is of no use since it is still a miniscule % of total titles available.

Hi-Rez will be useless unless it is 'Mass-Rez' or adopted by larger community (which means more titles needed)..until then RBCD on a great CD player is the best or listen to 3 Channel

Cheers,
Kishore

infiniti driver · « **Reply #42 on:** 11 May 2004, 04:50 pm »

I have a dvd-A player in my car! I also can play DVD-A's on my portable toshiba DVD player and it cost 165.00 with video. It is not much bigger than a walkman. I render a DVD-A and I can take the portable on the plane and listen to my music. Cannot be done with SACD. The car system works great as well. Join a car audio forum and look at the huge DVD auto audio following. Remember, any DVD-A will work in any DVD machine. We know how many have been sold worldwide. It may not find the layers of 24/192 but it will play back in 24 bit. BMW and even Ford have the option of DVD-A in their new cars. Others as well but I have not researched them all.

With the proper software (less than 50 dollars) you can do DVD-A in your computer. I saw a drive (playback) for 34 dollars and a recorder for 79 dollars this week. They ALL are compatable with redbook. All of them!

You must have the proper sound card. 99 bucks gets a working unit with the software.

SACD non hybrids are coasters unless you have an SACD player. Their are many still on the shelves.

I have not met anyone who does not own a DVD player. Even a 19 dollar DVD player will accept the DVD-A disc and give back music. As I say, SACD shot itself in the foot for me. DVD-A is more versitle for the recording arts and studios like mine than SACD ever will be. Reasons, solid ones, for my preference.

Try to get a live recording pressed to SACD. Look at what that costs!

I can do a DVD-A and have it ready to send out in 5 mins for 84 cents.

The CD I am offering was especially done for redbook. I may in the future do it on DVD-A but it would mean reauthoring and having to remaster in 5.1 and up convert it all to 24/96. Maybe I will...but not for a while. I would have to get clerance from the artists.

I apologize for sounding one sided and sour about this. Fact is fact. I tried DAMN hard to be inside when the SACD's were at their infancy. It does piss me off to pay 25 bucks for an SACD and it sounds like ass. This I was trying to avoid.

Another example is DSOM. All the folks that say it is killer, did you know the sub channel requires a full range loudspeaker because the sub channel is full range on this disc? Connect the sub channel to a full range speaker. Listen to any colour you like, told you so!

RussKon · « **Reply #43 on:** 11 May 2004, 09:33 pm »

Quote

It does piss me off to pay 25 bucks for an SACD and it sounds like ass.

then you obviously haven't listened to anything in the telarc catalog....

http://www.telarc.com/sacd/default.asp?mscssid=LS871RLMLLLG9G8PXRTH6W03WCTQ39BF

and from their website...

Quote

***All Telarc SACDs are hybrid discs compatible for listening on traditional CD players.***

so all of the SACD's in their catalog will play on any cd player...

i have the 1812 overture recorded by the cincinatti pops as well as carmina burana recorded by the atlanta symphony orchestra...

http://www.telarc.com/gscripts/title.asp?gsku=0541&mscssid=LS871RLMLLLG9G8PXRTH6W03WCTQ39BF

http://www.telarc.com/gscripts/title.asp?gsku=0575&mscssid=LS871RLMLLLG9G8PXRTH6W03WCTQ39BF

they are two recordings that are simply some of the finest recordings that i have ever heard in any format..... a non-existent noise floor and extreme dynamics with an almost liquid-like smoothness...esp in the string sections and the vocals on the carmina burana recording...

if you think that these 2 recordings "sound like ass"...then that's where your head is.....

you can be upset all you want because you could not afford the technology or "the good ole boys club" kept you out.... but the recordings stand on their own as a good product (at least everything that i've heard from the telarc line)..... and just like every other format... there are some bad releases as well as some awesome ones.... i have a carol king SACD that is just plain bad....

but overall, i am very pleased with the SACD recordings that i have purchased and i plan to keep on buying more.... and i have many more choices with SACD than DVD-audio...

maybe if the promoters of DVD-audio got their heads out of their asses and did their job we might have more choices to choose from in DVD-audio software.....

but right now it seems like most of the major producers of hi-rez discs have chosen SACD over DVD-audio....

Marbles · « **Reply #44 on:** 11 May 2004, 09:54 pm »

DVD-A is not winning, SACD is not winning, as long as there are two competing formats, we all LOSE!

Here we go again with the next gen, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

Sucks for us.

Good thing I have a nice RBCD playback system and the ultra in hi-rez formats, vinyl.

It's silly to argue over formats that have such small followings and probably won't have much futures either.

Infinity Driver, thanks for your perspective on things, it was (is) interesting.

Russ, why are you so worked up over this subject?

azryan · « **Reply #45 on:** 11 May 2004, 11:01 pm »

"-Remember, any DVD-A will work in any DVD machine.-"

That's as true as saying an SACD will work in any CD player.
Both are true but neither is playing the hi-rez. layer -the point of either disc.

There are a lot of universal players and players in both formats so this is not a chicken or egg matter of no music till people have machine, no machines till mausic is avail.

It's the damn record campanies that are just kinda dabbling in these formats.

Every new artist's disc ought to be one format or the other. That it's not by now is just stupid.

The masses don't care though.

But the artists should. If I were making a new album and I was a big name talents artist I'd make sure it comes out in a hi rez format.

They don't seem to even know about these formats.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #46 on:** 11 May 2004, 11:11 pm »

That's incorrect, Ryan. No CD player will play an SACD. If the disc happens to contain a CD layer it will, but not all do. All DVD-As, however, have a layer any DVD player can access.

I know what you're trying to say, I think, but I want to keep this factual. The whole point of the thread wasn't to debate the merits of one format over the other. It was to discuss sales statistics. While it seems that SACD has a lead thru 2003, some figures indicate that DVD-A is really starting to take off. Again, the RIAA can't seem to keep its figures straight, so who knows how many copies of each are selling? The figures are also skewed somewhat by the fact that a great many of the SACDs that do sell are hybrids- who knows how many of those will ever see the inside of an SACD player? Many were likely bought as CDs- in fact, some of the best selling SACDs aren't even labled as SACDs. I don't know how we could ever tell how many cases of this there are.

I have to disagree with Marbles; I think both formats are doing okay for the length of time they've been out. About 7% of my entire collection is comprised of DVD-A/SACD and except for older stuff, a good percentage of my purchases are in the new formats. I'm not gonna use the excuse that someday something else will come out to avoid enjoying great sound of DVD-A & SACD right now.

Marbles · « **Reply #47 on:** 11 May 2004, 11:21 pm »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

I have to disagree with Marbles; I think both formats are doing okay for the length of time they've been out., ...

Rob, enjoy your hi-rez music. I have about 8 or 10 DVD-A's. No big deal to me. I prefer concert DVD's to DVD-A's.

What would you call "crappy" for the time they have been out?

Can you compare them to say CD's or DVD's after they had been out for 5-6 years?

I think by percentages of all people there were many more who new about CD's or DVD's after 5 years than currently know about DVD-A, or SACD.

Don't have any hard figures at my disposal...maybe someone here can edumacate us on that.

RussKon · « **Reply #48 on:** 12 May 2004, 01:18 am »

Quote from: Marbles

Russ, why are you so worked up over this subject?

just trying to correct some misinformation posted by the previous poster......

cheers!

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #49 on:** 12 May 2004, 02:56 am »

I'm not sure, Marbles, to be honest. I remember that in '88 I had maybe 40 CDs, and there was only one other guy in my residence hall at the U that had a player. And people were stunned at my *huge* collection!

I don't really remember how long it took til pretty much everything I wanted was out on CD (actually, it still isn't).

I wonder how well CD would take off if it was launched today and had to compete against DVD-Video, Broadband internet, MP3, X-Box, PS-2, Gamecube & PC gaming? Even giving the crushing sonic superiority of DVD-A & SACD, I just don't think it's realistic to expect any audio-only format to acheive the kind of success that the CD did. In part I don't think music plays the same role in most peoples live that it used to, and the masses don't listen in the same way. Hell, even the CD seems to be on the ropes, if you can believe the major labels! So any expectations should probably be revised downward.

Right now by my estimates there are over 2,500 titles available, with a tremendous variety especially of Classical (which is near & dear to my heart). How many "should" there be? Beats me. Do I wish there was more? Definately. But it sounds so much better (to my ears) that I'm gonna stay the course. I don't have a crystal ball to know if it will succeed, but I'm optimistic.

And RussKon, that's kinda a straw man arguement, isn't it? I might have misread ID's post, but I didn't see him say anywhere that those two recordings sounded "like ass," only that most of the ones he's heard did. You probably needn't accuse him of having his head up his arse on those grounds...

soundboy · « **Reply #50 on:** 12 May 2004, 07:21 am »

I think DVD-A is showing some signs of life in recent months. However, it seems SACD has gained a stronger presense on a worldwide basis. As far as I can tell, outside of the US and Japan, DVD-A is behind in terms of market penetration and titles released.

For me, it comes down to the availability of titles I want. Thus far, SACD has been able to satisfy me. For now.

Marbles · « **Reply #51 on:** 12 May 2004, 01:20 pm »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Even giving the crushing sonic superiority of DVD-A & SACD, I just don't think it's realistic to expect any audio-only format to acheive the kind of success that the CD did. ...

This is one place that we differ. I don't think that DVD-A has crushing sonic superiority over DVD-V or vinyl, or CD. Maybe it's my DVD-A players limitations, maybe it's a well setup analog system, or maybe it's a great CD playback system. Maybe it's my preference to also see the musicians making the music in concert DVD-V's to not seeing them in DVD-A's.

DVD-A is interesting in MC and I can see why some would prefer it, and I enjoy most of the DVD-A's I have, but it is minorly better to me at best, not crushingly.

In 1986 the local Plainsboro, NJ music store switched from mostly LP's to mostly CD's, and that's when I started in earnest to switch and replace my LP's with CD's.

infiniti driver · « **Reply #52 on:** 12 May 2004, 06:05 pm »

Russ, I never mentioned the Telarc recordings. Since I have them on vinyl, I see no need to repurchase for the sake of SACD. From my perspective, SACD does not offer me anything viable for the indivigual record label. Perhaps when the format is "recordist friendly" I can take a different view. Perhaps when the mastering of the SACD's I own, sound closer to the actual master (and I have heard many masters personally of the work I am speaking, namely Toto IV) then SACD can show that care and consistancy that not only the format deserves, but the art, itself.

I have SACD's that simply are not representative of their perspective masters. Yes yes, I HAVE compared.

An no, my head is not up my arse nor did I spread any "mis-information"

What I said is from my perspective, if you do not understand that, perhaps some soul searching may be of order.

Since My POV is not yours, their may be something that can be learned of that.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #53 on:** 12 May 2004, 08:40 pm »

Well, Marbles, I should have mentioned the "crushing superiority" is JMO. To me, the sound of CD is preferrable/more real than LP, and in stereo at least, DVD-A does all the same things as CD but with more air, transparency & smoothness. The MC aspect is, I suppose, an aquired taste.

I think you hit upon something really important with your comment about seeing the musician (although you can't see them on CD or LP, either). I have read many comments about how DVD-Video & being able to see the performance has won many people away from CD & LP, too. Even some audiophools. Maybe we have to veiw the decline in CD sales differently in light of the $ billions in DVD-V sales. I don't know of anywhere the statistics are broken down into exactly what type of content is being sold on DVD-Video.

When I bought my first CDs (3 the first day: Judus Priest "Turbo" & "Defenders of the Faith" and Queensryche "Rage For Order"), I told myself I wouldn't replace my whole collection with CD, just buy new stuff. That didn't last long!

Soon I was repurchasing everything I could. But to this day I still haven't been able to get everything (although I think I've found the last CD to replace my last LP!). It was pretty late into the CD's life before I could get all my old stuff on CD. Then again, consider what I listen too...

RussKon · « **Reply #54 on:** 12 May 2004, 09:42 pm »

Quote

Since I have them on vinyl, I see no need to repurchase for the sake of SACD.

then you are missing a perfect opportunity to see if the format has any real value.... you can directly compare your vinyl versions to the SACD releases....

i too have the 1812 overture on vinyl..... the SACD version presents a much better sound than the vinyl....

overall, you were presenting your "perspective" about SACD's it sounded like you were attacking all SACD's

Quote

SACD non hybrids are coasters unless you have an SACD player. Their are many still on the shelves.

and

Quote

I apologize for sounding one sided and sour about this. Fact is fact. I tried DAMN hard to be inside when the SACD's were at their infancy. It does piss me off to pay 25 bucks for an SACD and it sounds like ass. This I was trying to avoid.

and

Quote

What I can do with SACD:

Buy overpriced, fraudulently mastered works and play them back.

Gripe at the overall poor mastering.

despite all of your negative ranting, i listed two SACD's for an example that will blow away almost any other recording that i have ever heard....

is SACD the problem?.... no

as always it goes back to the original recording engineer....

the format is really unimportant...... just give me more recordings of different artists and choices in music....SACD is doing that right now and DVD-audio is not....

cheers!

pjchappy · « **Reply #55 on:** 12 May 2004, 10:40 pm »

DVD concerts are great. Being able not only to hear David Gilmour, but to see him makes a BIG difference. Sounds good, too.

p

infiniti driver · « **Reply #56 on:** 12 May 2004, 10:43 pm »

I really don't know why you posted that other than to try to start an argument..which is something on the web that I consider very sophmorish.

I said my say and I am sticking to it. (I did borrow the 1812 (Telarc) on SACD and I found the bottom to be "different" than I am accustomed to..as in "compressed") More headroom would have been a nice touch. It seemed mastered too Loud and did not have the impact of the vinyl.

No more from me on this thread. No need to repeat the obvious.

RussKon · « **Reply #57 on:** 12 May 2004, 10:56 pm »

Quote

It does piss me off to pay 25 bucks for an SACD and it sounds like ass.

yes.... let's keep it on a mature level

LOL

good luck with that!

Marbles · « **Reply #58 on:** 12 May 2004, 11:26 pm »

Quote from: RussKon

is SACD the problem?.... no

as always it goes back to the original recording engineer....

the format is really unimportant...... just give me more recordings of different artists and choices in music....SACD is doing that right now and DVD-audio is not....

cheers!

I agreed with everything you said in the above quotes with the exception of your "DVD-audio is not" . DVD-A is just one more option, not one less. Maybe what you meant to say was SACD is giving me MORE of the music I enjoy?

With my playback systems it matters less the format and more the recording/mixing/mastering.

RussKon · « **Reply #59 on:** 12 May 2004, 11:30 pm »

marbles....

yes.... SACD is giving me many more choices than DVD-audio....