Is DVD-A "winning" the format war?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 May 2004, 03:45 pm »

jasontkennedy,

Fascinating info on the RIAA. Other than the de facto LP equalization standard, I didn't have a real idea what that organization was.

Thx, TCG.

John Kotches · « **Reply #21 on:** 3 May 2004, 01:36 pm »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Blu-Ray is the dream, but I'm getting a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that HD-DVD is what we're gonna get. It has a fraction of the capacity of B/R, but Sony/Philips and their fetish for needing the patent has possibly sunk them. Damn shame, since with HD-DVD we'd get "Hi Def Lite" with a lossy soundtrack as opposed to full HD with MLP. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see...

Well then perhaps you should examine the specifications as they sit right now.

Blu-Ray has:
MPEG-2 for video
DD, DTS for audio

HD-DVD has:
MPEG-2, H.264(MPEG-4), VC-9 for video. The latter two have far greater coding efficiency than MPEG-2.
DD, DTS, MLP for audio

So even with lower absolute storage capacity, a higher quality picture with higher quality audio can be acheived with HD-DVD over Blu-Ray with less space utilized.

Cheers,

Marbles · « **Reply #22 on:** 3 May 2004, 01:43 pm »

Hi John,

That of course begs the question, "how much better would Blu-Ray be if they used the MPEG-4 and VC-9?" and it also makes me wonder why they don't.

Must have something to do with $$$$$

John Kotches · « **Reply #23 on:** 3 May 2004, 03:15 pm »

Marbles,

IMO they are trying to offset greater manufacturing costs (Blu-Ray requires new production lines, HD-DVD doesn't) with authoring costs.

Of course, I could well be wrong.

Cheers,

azryan · « **Reply #24 on:** 3 May 2004, 05:42 pm »

Are you sure MLP is being set as a standard for HD-DVD?

Do you have any inside info as to if HD-DVD is going to be only using blue lasers too or if they're allow blue or red?

I could imagine a lot of early HD-DVD's coming out in DD and MPEG-4 on a red laser format, and eventually -much like how eventually DTS players and progressive scanning found their way to DVD players... later on we see blue laser HD-DVD w/ the rare MLP soundtrack.

No?

John Kotches · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 May 2004, 07:16 pm »

Quote from: azryan

Are you sure MLP is being set as a standard for HD-DVD?

It's in the list of approved audio codecs for HD-DVD, as defined by the DVD Forum.

Quote from: azryan

Do you have any inside info as to if HD-DVD is going to be only using blue lasers too or if they're allow blue or red?

As per the steering committee (also a matter of record), it's a blue laser technology. There is no provision for a red laser interim solution.

I don't have any "inside info", what I have is what's been passed along as public knowledge as part of the HD-DVD steering committee's published results. Personally speaking, I don't think "Inside info" is something that should be passed around on internet forums.

Quote from: azryan

I could imagine a lot of early HD-DVD's coming out in DD and MPEG-4 on a red laser format, and eventually -much like how eventually DTS players and progressive scanning found their way to DVD players... later on we see blue laser HD-DVD w/ the rare MLP soundtrack.

Well you can imagine it all you like, but that's not the way the specs have been defined at this time.

Quote from: azryan

No?

No.

azryan · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 May 2004, 10:09 pm »

Where's the 'official specs' listed?

I looked on dvdforum.org and I don't see the extent of this info on MLP, blue laser only use, etc..

It this the official DVD group's site? Is there even an official site?

I'd be plenty happy with MPEG-4, MLP on a HD-DVD. I'd just like to read the details to see if this will actually happen, like if MLP will be an option or if every HD-DVD MUST have an MLP track on it.

That'd be news to me.

Or maybe blue lasers will be a MUST have also on all HD-DVD players, but if they also have red lasers and companies can put a HD-DVD movie in MPEG-4 and w/ a DD or DTS soundtrack to be read by a red laser....
I wasn't sure if that wasn't going to be allowed.
It just seemed like that sort of thing might be an 'early' growing pain of the format.

Hell... we still don't know if this will actually come out at all or if any movies are done in this format or if Blu-Ray will screw everything up and make a format war that CD and DVD didn't have to deal with.

I'd love to read the 'devil' of all those kinds of details that this format mess brings up.

John Kotches · « **Reply #27 on:** 4 May 2004, 01:48 am »

Ryan,

You're a bright guy, and it's relatively easy to find. Why not try the DVD Forum's website? The appropriate link is accessible via the home page.

Or, if you're lazy, click here

No red laser spec at all. Simply MPEG-4, with DD, DTS or MLP.

THe rest of your speculation is misguided at best.

scooter · « **Reply #28 on:** 4 May 2004, 03:43 pm »

Quote from: John Kotches

Ryan,

You're a bright guy, and it's relatively easy to find. Why not try the DVD Forum's website? The appropriate link is accessible via the home page.

Or, if you're lazy, click here

No red laser spec at all. Simply MPEG-4, with DD, DTS or MLP.

Azyran is a bright guy that does not jump to conclusions, he can also read, hopefully you will also take time to read the document but just in case you are lazy.

If you look at the resolutions in the link that you provided it clearly shows that the DD, DTS & MLP were not approved for the HD-DVD by the committee.

The committee did however approve this at the same meeting: The Steering Committee asks the TCG and WG-1 to reconsider their recommendation of audio codecs for HD Video Applications, and make a new recommendation by the next Steering Committee meeting that includes at least one lossless audio codec and at least one lossy audio codec.

The video codecs were given conditional approval and these were: MPEG2, WM9 (VC-9) and MPEG4 AVC(H.264) Video CODECs as mandatory for the HD DVD Video specification for playback devices, subject to (a) an update in 60 days regarding licensing terms and conditions, (b) a presentation by each of the respective licensing bodies at the next SC meeting and (c) possible elimination of any of the above CODECs at the next SC meeting.

The forum is a highly political body controlled primarily by the major electronics manufacturers and the studios. Nothing is set in stone yet but it is a good bet that the video codecs will not change. Both will be adopted at the behest of the studios, they want more than one codec so that licensing fees are kept reasonable and competition always does that.

It is highly likely that DD will be again chosen as the lossy format over DTS so that there is backwards compatibility with SD DVD. There are now two lossless compression schemes available, the existing MLP from Meridian and one from DTS. So we wait for the next steering committee meeting to determine what will actually happen.

Azryan, below is a link explaining a little more about MLP which you will find interesting:
http://www.seneschal.net/papers/mlp.htm

Here is a link regarding the adoption of the Toshiba/NEC Blue laser system as the HD ROM standard, as you can see it is not really cut and dried either:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/27/toshiba_blue_laser_tech_chosen/

This article is where it began, it explains the dual laser head to be used for HD players so that SD DVD (Red Laser) and also HD DVD (Blue laser) can be read by the same machine:
http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php?story=20040106221844986

Quote from: John Kotches

THe rest of your speculation is misguided at best.

also

I don't have any "inside info", what I have is what's been passed along as public knowledge as part of the HD-DVD steering committee's published results. Personally speaking, I don't think "Inside info" is something that should be passed around on internet forums.

Personally I think people who are too lazy to check their facts before posting should have their privileges removed, it simply wastes peoples time. As far as misguided speculation there will be a format war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Sony will be releasing HD content on Blu-Ray before HD-DVD, they have publicly committed to Blu-Ray. Expect to see some disks mid to late next year.

John Kotches · « **Reply #29 on:** 4 May 2004, 04:34 pm »

Scooter,

My mistake on the audio codecs. I will be extremely surprised if the DTS lossless codec (new and not field proven) is selected over MLP (4+ years in the field). I haven't yet seen any papers on DTS' lossless technology -- I'd be very surprised if there's nothing out there.

24/48K/8 channels via MLP will cost ~4-5Mbits/second sustained, and peaks at 9Mbits/second.

DTS Lossless? Unknown.

Licensing will be the big issue on both of the new codecs for acceptance. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see MS "lowball" the licensing for VC-9, to gain market share. Will this force the stakeholders for v.264/MPEG-4 (MS is one of the stakeholders here) to accept a lower

The question is, who wants to invest in new infrastructure in this still slow to recover world economy? Sony's financials aren't spectacular of late. Only Sony's Playstation and Films business units are profitable.

If the game were only about storage capacity, it would be over. It isn't. It's about content -- and that battle has Sony and WB on opposite sides.

Cheers,

azryan · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 May 2004, 06:14 pm »

Thanks for having my back scooter!

Very uncool John to imply I'm lazy and to flat out say I'm misguided when obviously you were wrong.

That link was the link I had already seen and I mentioned here and as scooter said it doesn't confirm what you said.

scooter and I had been going through this messy issue just recently and neither found what you claim that's why I thought maybe you had info from somewhere else.
No reason for you to give me your attitude when I only asked harmless questions.

groovetube66 · « **Reply #31 on:** 6 May 2004, 02:15 pm »

I'm sticking with and betting on DVD-A

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

http://www.fivechannels.com/artiklar/CDvsSACDvsDVD-A-followup.htm

RussKon · « **Reply #32 on:** 10 May 2004, 02:34 am »

Quote from: groovetube66

I'm sticking with and betting on DVD-A

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

http://www.fivechannels.com/artiklar/CDvsSACDvsDVD-A-followup.htm

the experts can discuss the relative merits of each format to death..... but what really matters is how many titles i can buy on each format....

and right now sacd has about three or four times the titles compared to dvd-a.....

give me more titles on dvd-a and i will buy them..... until that point i will keep buying sacd's.....

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #33 on:** 10 May 2004, 03:13 am »

Actually there's about 40% more SACDs than DVD-As.

RussKon · « **Reply #34 on:** 10 May 2004, 03:47 am »

maybe its just the places i shop locally and online that have that ratio (3:1 or 4:1) for sale!

soundboy · « **Reply #35 on:** 10 May 2004, 04:54 pm »

According to an article dated 03/08/2004 on http://highfidelityreview.com, there were over 700 titles on DVD-A. As of this post, there are 2,052 titles listed at http://www.sa-cd.net. But these are just the titles listed at that site, I personally know of at least 20-30 titles not listed there. On top of that, maybe we should count the Peter Gabriel and The Police titles twice since they are available as hybrids overseas (from an American perspective).

For example, EMI just released 3 Sarah Brightman titles on multi-channel hybrid SACD, plus a Vanessa Mae title....

Vanessa Mae - The Violin Player

Sarah Brightman - Eden

Sarah Brightman - Time To Say Goodbye

Sarah Brightman - La Luna

Maksim - The Piano Player

Also coming, 2 classic Genesis titles...."The Lamb" and "Tricks of the Tail". The 5.1 remixes are done already.

infiniti driver · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 May 2004, 03:36 am »

Please excuse me if one of the links provided in the last 35 posts covers this.

This is from a mastering engineers perspective as well as an audiophile

Please excuse my "tone" because it has cost me money and time with no results to offer in SACD. This said, I mean not to be a hateful person..it all simply pisses me and hundreds of mastering engineers off.

SACD.
DVD-A

SACD:

I have the playback systems I own 3 machines. Inconsistancies in mastering really sucks. Toto IV was nasty sounding on SACD. Of the several dosen SACD's I have, I find inconsistancies in mastering talent, uncalibrated monitoring stations and lack of care to be running rabid. The few that sound good does not justify the format at all IMHO. 600 dollars spent on SACD's for the 8 good ones I have . Sorry, fuck that.

What I cannot do with SACD.

1. Archive and make my own.
2. Be "accepted" as one of the chosen few for SACD mastering. The price of admission and the lack of interest from repeated overnight mails in 1998 and 1999 to get "involved" with the format was disgusting. At one time I had an underwriter that said, "money no object" You need a million to get in, lets go to the bank. You are "essential: in this realm. Sony would not budge, their chosen ones that ruined the sound in remasters, got the equipment for FREE to do the misguided work. I am serious, I have SACD's that really suck. Some of which I was involved in some of the production of the redbooks.
3. Get a sample pressing for less than 500 dollars of my work.

4. Be involved in a format which does not support the "art" but is money hungry.

5. Deal with folks who are not open to allowing an independant agent into the realm to advance the art. It is a secret society. Lot of back door deals. Fuck that too.

What I can do with SACD:

Buy overpriced, fraudulently mastered works and play them back.

Gripe at the overall poor mastering.

DVD-A

What I can do:

Buy blank DVD-R disc for DVD-A production for under 1 dollar each.
Produce product "in house" on my own label.
Transfer formats for archiving purposes.
Buy a machine for under 100 dollars.
Have freedom to distribute my "works" via the format without having to pay Sony.
Purchase good mastering from the store.

I have yet to hear a poor DVD-A and I have several poor SACD's

OK, let the fun begin. DVD-A mastering is store shelf material from Wal Mart and a program you can buy. SACD is not mainstream and never will be. If it were not for the poor mastering, I would have been much more receptive. Then the attitude from Sony on not allowing anyone in but their chosen ones, killed it for me. If independant lables and consortiums cannot get SACD's manufactured competitively, then it is a dead issue for the arts.

Sorry, I wish it could have worked out.

DVD-A can give "true mastering quality" to the consumer.

Works that are independant can be authored and used by consumers without the rat race. Mastering engineers are wising up. The general consensus makes dvd-a the choice for high rez. Another thing...ALL DVD machines will play a DVD-A (in mpeg) and play a redbook. How many DVD machines are being sold that can use the DVD-A disc, no matter the rez? How many machines can play a SACD without the hybrid mastering?

Ok, now you see.

I have many folks that buy SACD's without the machine that are non hybrid SACD's that want me to x fer it to redbook for them. I do it free of charge. Provide prepaid envelope, it is done.

SACD can screw itself. I am moving onward. They could not give me the gear or free manufacturing to embrace the format after the last 6 years of BS I went through. It cost me and the industry in the long run.

They shot their foot, leg and heart out from under theirself.

I have redbooks I mastered, that exceed all my SACD's at this time.

See SP speakers forum to get a disc.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 May 2004, 03:47 am »

It's interesting to hear from an "insider" on the subject. For what's it's worth I'm a bigger fan of DVD-A, too, and for many of the same reasons. Plus, I feel it sounds better.

I'd love to get your disc, but I thought maybe it was only for Timepeice or Continuum owners.

RussKon · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 May 2004, 03:47 am »

Quote

Another thing...ALL DVD machines will play a DVD-A (in mpeg) and play a redbook. How many DVD machines are being sold that can use the DVD-A disc, no matter the rez?

and they won't play in portable cd players or in all the car cd players and car cd changers out there.... or in older computer drives that don't have the dvd capability....

despite your trials and tribulations.... there are soooo many more choices in the SACD titles than DVD-audio....

additionally.... there are many excellent SACD recordings.... esp on the telarc label.....

as a pure music consumer... i see many more choices in the SACD options than in the limited DVD-audio listings.....

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 May 2004, 03:50 am »

I think it depends on what you like. Personally I have more DVD-A discs and there are more I still want. There just seems to be a lot of "filler" on SACD, stuff issued because of the cheap royalties/high profit margin. There are a lot of discs, but a pretty low percentage that interest me. JMOHO.