[jimdgoulding]

A 2000Hz wavelength is 7" long.  Have to be a wide cabinet or a pretty high crossover point to the woofer for there to be much of a problem.

[Vapor Audio]

A 2000Hz wavelength is 7" long.  Have to be a wide cabinet or a pretty low crossover point to the woofer for there to be much of a problem.

It sounds like you're thinking that only tweeters cause diffraction, which isn't the case.  1/4 wave of 2000hz is 1 3/4", so you would need a roundover that size to eliminate diffraction down to that point

We're getting on a tangent here ...

[Ric Schultz]

I have found that felting both the midrange and tweeter to be very important no matter how small the front baffle is.  If I had a pair of two way monitors I would felt the whole front.  If it does not move....then cover it.  Try it!  Most manufacturers do not want to felt because it does not look great and if it is black felt it will collect visible dust immediately.   Turbo, have you tried felting your speakers and if so, what did you hear?

Maybe because I always use simple passive 6 db per octave xovers or no xover I have always found that time aligning all drivers physically by ear  make the speakers seriously image better and be more flat in frequency response.  I know phase is a complicated thing and some people say that by going 12 db per octave you don't need to physically move the tweeter back....but every speaker I have made for the last 22 years has been time aligned and the imaging is fantastic.  Turbo...have you tried moving the tweeter back relative to the woof and if so, what did you hear?

I had highly modified Gallo 3.1s and they have the midranges in really small balls and those speakers imaged very nice.  However, my two way monitor is one foot wide and images just as good.....totally felted.  You can see a pic if you dig deeply on my website.

[jimdgoulding]

No tangent intended.  Inquiring minds may want to know.  I shouldn't think a person would want to believe that they are stuck with a situation when there is a low cost alternative to having to buy different speakers to get great soundstaging. 

A demonstration of diffraction in action off speakers with right or near right angles (Turbo's thoughtfully designed cabinets do not have this interaction as the sides of their cabinets are rounded away to the degree they must to avoid it): http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/diffdem.gif

The red and green circles in the illustration are nothing more than the blue circles themselves being reflected into the mix.  They are out of time and phase and amount to a distortion of what the microphones captured at the recording of the event in real time and space.  You can know this when you don't have them.

As the frequency goes from high to low, the waveforms become longer escaping interaction with the speakers baffle.  Treating one's room then becomes desirable.  However, the leading edge or transient attack of most instruments is first produced by our tweeters. 

When this becomes a non-issue, everything about the instruments and the recording becomes clearer and more truthful  . 

[spinner]

 I have found that a bit of mass loading does wonders. My units have 50 lbs of lead shot in the bottoms . This tightened up the base and with a cleaner bass came more details in the mids. With that came a somewhat deeper spoud stage. It' all experimental fun really  Cheers.

[youravhandyman]

Mass loading?  Ryan, it sounds like Spinner needs to hear about your Arcus. 

[ricardojoa]

You mean something like this

http://www.entreq.com/default.asp?PageId=1924

[Ric Schultz]

Yes, the speaker/baffle has to be massive and dead....but I have also found that magnet mounting the woofers/midranges makes a noticeable difference in detail and imaging.  Of course, we could now start talking about how much better it is to mount a magnet damped driver on a seriously dead and braced open baffle (way better imaging and detail) but this is the "enclosers" forum.

[cujobob]

You mean something like this

http://www.entreq.com/default.asp?PageId=1924

lol wow...that's different. Snake oil or real? FWIW, lack of resonances is clearly important, however, it is not the most audible factor, just one that should be included in the overall design.

[spinner]

 Tanks for the mass info . Great . More should explore this idea depending on the particular speakers involved. I think this is not always  true but in my case it was .......Good listening to you all   .

[jimdgoulding]

Ricardo, two 5" drivers combine to make a larger source and put more energy into the room.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Some of us think an Open Baffle speaker design gives the best soundstage. 

Bob

[cujobob]

Depends on if you want diffuse or precise for a soundstage, too. Panels, line sources, many ways to get a big soundstage...getting it right, there's an argument that can go on forever.

[Bob in St. Louis]

....... there's an argument that can go on forever.

Agreed. And I'll be the last to drag it on.
Just thought I'd throw my 2cents in.

Party on fellas. 
Bob

[PDR]

And I'll be the last to drag it on.
Just thought I'd throw my 2cents in.

Bob....I'll help you pull that rope.....

[JackD201]

Something that folks haven't touched on in this thread is symmetry. An excellent soundstage requires very close tolerances between the transducers and their respective amplification and source channels. Then they have to be in an acoustical environment that is like wise acoustically symmetrical.

Having said that, the cues that make up a great soundstage must first and foremost be in the recording itself.

My 2 cents.

[cujobob]

Isn't symmetry a bad thing for bass, though? 
See...this is all too complicated to make a general statement about

A wide front stage is important so that the first reflection points don't screw everything up.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Bob....I'll help you pull that rope.....

Judging by the equipment in your avatar, I'd think you'd give that rope a nice manly tug.   

A wide front stage is important so that the first reflection points don't screw everything up.

Now you're bringing room acoustics in the mix. Wise choice when talking about soundstage. 

Bob

[JackD201]

How do you mean Bob? If you mean equidistance from the source of the bass to two or more room boundaries, I agree with you. That's more of a tonal balance issue though where such placement invites over bearing one note bass. It isn't mutually exclusive to what I meant which is symmetry between left and right channels where both sources can be offset in placement.

A solid center image depends on equal or as close to equal amplitude and arrival time with as close a spectral balance as possible. For everything else on the stage, where the stereo effect employs small delays and shifts the ability of the system in conjunction with the way it interacts with the room, is highly dependent on the system and room's ability to deliver the same at the listening position.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Well Jack.....I didn't really want a dog in this fight.....I was merely commenting on the fact that Cujo made a reference to the first reflection points. Even a moderately treated room will benefit and affect soundstage by a HUGE margin. Seems he believes the equipment can somehow "overcome" a room's first reflection points.

Assuming I understand what he meant about, "A wide front stage is important so that the first reflection points don't screw everything up".

But then again, maybe I misunderstood his meaning. But it sounds lik eyou "get it" when you meantioned "the room's ability.....".

Bob