[jhm731]

The Most Holographic - 3D - Preamps You know Of:

MFA Venusian

[Steve]

  I am not after some "objectively transparent" preamp that doesn't add anything.   

I understand Woodsyi. Each has their own individual tastes and some like added flavor to their music.

Personally, I am old enough that I grew up with the accepted standard that music should be as natural and real as possible.

Cheers. 

[nickd]

The best preamp I have ever had in my system was a NAT Audio Symmetrical. Quite stunning in Transparency, tonal color, 3D soundstage ability, low noise floor and it will drive a balanced 600 ohm load (my reference amp is 2.3k ohm balanced in so that is a requirement).

A friend of mine just bought the Ayon Polaris III preamp. I'm waiting to hear his thoughts on the sound as I have enjoyed the Spirit III as a stunning achievement in an intergrated amp.   

[Rocket_Ronny]

MFA Venusian

Can you share more?


Rocket_Ronny

[doug s.]

i think it is a red herring to say that, when something "colours" the sound, it is, of necessity, "less accurate".  because, recorded music is yust that - a facsimile of the real ewent.  it may not be measurable, but i believe that the "illusion" of real music is not necessarily going to be had by the most accurately measuring gear.  and i am sure this is what rim is after.   

as good ol' al einstein once said:
"everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted."

i added a component to my system a while back - a remote control ldr passive attenuator.  it made my system, (w/tube preamp), even more transparent and more dynamic, and it was already outstanding in these regards.  (no change in holography, timbre or extension that i could readily discern, but it's excellent in this regard as well.)

ymmv,

doug s.

[jackman]

i think it is a red herring to say that, when something "colours" the sound, it is, of necessity, "less accurate".  because, recorded music is yust that - a facsimile of the real ewent.  it may not be measurable, but i believe that the "illusion" of real music is not necessarily going to be had by the most accurately measuring gear.  and i am sure this is what rim is after.   

as good ol' al einstein once said:
"everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted."

i added a component to my system a while back - a remote control ldr passive attenuator.  it made my system, (w/tube preamp), even more transparent and more dynamic, and it was already outstanding in these regards.  (no change in holography, timbre or extension that i could readily discern, but it's excellent in this regard as well.)

ymmv,

doug s.

So when it comes to the realistic illusion of real music, measurements don't matter when it comes to gear that does not measure accurately but they do matter with gear that measures accurately - because you feel gear that measures accurately does not sound as "real"?  Are you serious?   

I'm not saying measurements are everything but if you want a good "facsimile" of what is on the recording, how is a system with more distortion going to get you closer to the source than a system that has less distortion? 

Lastly, I think you can get good 3D hologriphic sound with a system that is accurate.  Of course, my grandmother listened to an AM radio and thought it sounded great.  Maybe she knew something all of us don't know...or maybe it was just the dementia.   

As good ol' Einstein once said:
"If I'm so smart, how come I'm dead?"

Cheers,

Jack

[jhm731]

Can you share more?


Rocket_Ronny

The Venusian was three chassis version of the MFA octal Lumincence preamps.

Phono section uses 4-5691; 2-6EM7 for 44 db of gain.
Line section uses 2-6SN7(5692); 2-6DN7 for 28 db of gain.

The last of the octals models was the Luminescence C, which was built in Dec. 1990.

 

[roymail]

i added a component to my system a while back - a remote control ldr passive attenuator.  it made my system, (w/tube preamp), even more transparent and more dynamic, and it was already outstanding in these regards.  (no change in holography, timbre or extension that i could readily discern, but it's excellent in this regard as well.)
doug s.

Did the new attenuator replace the integrated volume control of the preamp, or how did you connect the two?  Thanks!

[doug s.]

So when it comes to the realistic illusion of real music, measurements don't matter when it comes to gear that does not measure accurately but they do matter with gear that measures accurately - because you feel gear that measures accurately does not sound as "real"?  Are you serious?   

I'm not saying measurements are everything but if you want a good "facsimile" of what is on the recording, how is a system with more distortion going to get you closer to the source than a system that has less distortion? 

Lastly, I think you can get good 3D hologriphic sound with a system that is accurate.  Of course, my grandmother listened to an AM radio and thought it sounded great.  Maybe she knew something all of us don't know...or maybe it was just the dementia.   

As good ol' Einstein once said:
"If I'm so smart, how come I'm dead?"

Cheers,

Jack

ya, i am serious.  ever listen to a tube amp or preamp?  think it sounds better than solid state?  i do, yet they can measure orders of magnitude worse.  you miss what i am saying, which is a perfect recording is yust that - only a recording.  the sound of live music may or may not sound close to it, even if the playback chain is theoretically 100%.  it's a black art, not yust science, and no one knows all the proper measurement tools or even all of what needs to be measured to mimic it.  thus the plethora of different electronics, speakers, etc.  an "illusion" of real music may not necessarily be found w/components that have the lowest distortion.  those "lowest distortion" components may simply be more accurate to the recording but not to what real live music sounds like.  the recording is a record/tape/disc/etc.  it is not the music itself in space.  there is a difference...

re: einstein, he never said "if i'm so smart, how come i'm dead?"  cuz he's dead, and it wouldn't have made any sense for him to say it when he was alive.     and the bottom line is, no matter how smart anyone is, no one escapes!   

doug s.

[doug s.]

Did the new attenuator replace the integrated volume control of the preamp, or how did you connect the two?  Thanks!

i have my preamp's gain turned almost to 100%; its output goes to the ldr wolume control - essentially a second passive preamp inserted into the chain.  another piece of gear, a second pair of ic's, yet the sound is more transparent.  go figure.  as good as the tube-based wolume pot is, in my melos pre, (upgraded from standard photentiometer - another ldr-type wolume pot), it is now better.

when i purchased the unit, (an eva-2 - the same unit passive chappy mentioned earlier in this thread - http://diyparadise.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18&products_id=113 ), to be honest, i was simply hoping for little to no sonic degradation, so as to gain a more ergonomically friendly remote than what my melos has...  the sonic improvement was an unanticipated benefit.

doug s.

[Russell Dawkins]

re: einstein, he never said "if i'm so smart, how come i'm dead?"  cuz he's dead, and it wouldn't have made any sense for him to say it when he was alive.     and the bottom line is, no matter how smart anyone is, no one escapes!   
doug s.

I think this was all understood. It's all part of the yoke. And what is it with these "y"s and "w"s?

[doug s.]

I think this was all understood. It's all part of the yoke. And what is it with these "y"s and "w"s?

yes, i know - i am yust yoking back!   

re: y's and w's; years ago, i shared a house with turkish roomies - they could not properly say words that begin with v or j.  it's a habit that stuck w/me...

doug s.

[Steve]

I believe there are some major problems with your analysis, one being a sonic signature is always formed from a "colored"/flavored component, system.

 
ya, i am serious.  ever listen to a tube amp or preamp?  think it sounds better than solid state?  i do, yet they can measure orders of magnitude worse.

 
I think you are assuming that the typical specs are the only specs, which is not true. The tube amp (depending upon design etc) may have less distortion in other areas, such as masking, DA, global negative feedback, capacitor resonant  problems etc. And different distortion are not equal. Some are more noticeable than others.

  you miss what i am saying, which is a perfect recording is yust that - only a recording.  the sound of live music may or may not sound close to it, even if the playback chain is theoretically 100%.

Yes, on a poor recording the instruments will sound inaccurate. Now check with a good recording. How close to a live instrument does one's system approach. Listen to a live instrument, close and at a distance. If the harmonic structure of the system is inaccurate, even a little, the instrument will not sound correct from the system. Such is what coloration(s) do and why we need to rid them.

Coloring the music will not cause the sound to appear more real,
since it leaves a sonic signature(s).
Adding flavors, harmonics etc will influence each instrument differently since each instrument has a different harmonic structure. So while some instruments may sound relatively natural, others will not. Only when all instruments sound accurate/natural, will the music sound natural and real.

How do you know your source, amp, and speakers are accurate since it is extremely difficult to test them in absolute terms.

  it's a black art, not yust science, and no one knows all the proper measurement tools or even all of what needs to be measured to mimic it.  thus the plethora of different electronics, speakers, etc.  an "illusion" of real music may not necessarily be found w/components that have the lowest distortion.

Somewhat true, but with poor specs (not only typical specs but other specs not published, such as DA, problems with global negative feedback, which harmonics are present etc) we cannot possibly arrive at accurate music. Oh I guess if the system were average to poor (gray area here), it could be improved by colorations. But not top notch, excellent systems.

those "lowest distortion" components may simply be more accurate to the recording but not to what real live music sounds like.  the recording is a record/tape/disc/etc.  it is not the music itself in space.  there is a difference...

See above. And that is why, besides measurements, sophisticated listening experiments are performed on preamps and ICs, to test for accuracy in absolute terms. The source, amp, and speaker are extremely difficult.

After specs and sophisticated listening tests for absolute accuracy in absolute terms, then the rest of the system will be determined by the quality of the source, amp, and speakers.

Added coloration(s) always screw up the music, one way or another, since they affect the structures of the instruments and voices, creating a sonic signature(s).

Cheers.

[jackman]

ya, i am serious.  ever listen to a tube amp or preamp?  think it sounds better than solid state?  i do, yet they can measure orders of magnitude worse.  you miss what i am saying, which is a perfect recording is yust that - only a recording.  the sound of live music may or may not sound close to it, even if the playback chain is theoretically 100%.  it's a black art, not yust science, and no one knows all the proper measurement tools or even all of what needs to be measured to mimic it.  thus the plethora of different electronics, speakers, etc.  an "illusion" of real music may not necessarily be found w/components that have the lowest distortion.  those "lowest distortion" components may simply be more accurate to the recording but not to what real live music sounds like.  the recording is a record/tape/disc/etc.  it is not the music itself in space.  there is a difference...

re: einstein, he never said "if i'm so smart, how come i'm dead?"  cuz he's dead, and it wouldn't have made any sense for him to say it when he was alive.     and the bottom line is, no matter how smart anyone is, no one escapes!   

doug s.

If you like the sound of that additional volume control, have you ever thought about cranking the volume of your volume control to 100% (dime it as they say in the biz) and adding another (third!) volume control to adjust the level?  If an additional volume control (on top of the one in your pre) is better, I would have to think an additional one on top of that (for a total of three!) would be mo better!  You might achieve the elusive 4D!

Like good ol' Einstein once said:
"Everyone has relatives".   


Cheers,

Jack

[doug s.]

steve, w/o quoting your whole post - for the most part, i agree w/you.  and i agree measurements are critical.  the only point i am trying to make is there is a big unknown inwolved.  and a recording, no matter how good, is yust that - a recording.  it is not the real thing.  we can try to get close.  but it is not necessarily the "best" measurements that will yield the "best" sonic results; a loudspeaker is different than the musical instrument itself, as well as all the equipment before it; and the mic and all the equipment after it, in front of the musical instrument.

you and your gear is a perfect example.  your preamps are highly regarded.  i suspect you could make preamps that measure better if you decided to forgo tubes.  and, as you say, listening tests play a crucial part in your design.

best,

doug s.

[TONEPUB]

ya, i am serious.  ever listen to a tube amp or preamp?  think it sounds better than solid state?  i do, yet they can measure orders of magnitude worse.  you miss what i am saying, which is a perfect recording is yust that - only a recording.  the sound of live music may or may not sound close to it, even if the playback chain is theoretically 100%.  it's a black art, not yust science, and no one knows all the proper measurement tools or even all of what needs to be measured to mimic it.  thus the plethora of different electronics, speakers, etc.  an "illusion" of real music may not necessarily be found w/components that have the lowest distortion.  those "lowest distortion" components may simply be more accurate to the recording but not to what real live music sounds like.  the recording is a record/tape/disc/etc.  it is not the music itself in space.  there is a difference...


doug s.

I guess I would argue this point.  I'd put the SS preamps I've heard from Vitus Audio and Burmester up against any tube preamplifier.  I own Burmester and have used Vitus and it's pretty amazing stuff.  Granted, it's pretty spendy, but it's not like SS can't be done right.  Also heard some great SS from Luxman and darTZeel too.  I love tubes, but could live happily with either of these choices.

We are just finishing an article on one of the vintage Klyne preamps and it's amazing.  You can usually find one for about $1200.  Again, I'd put it up against anything in tube world.


I just think it's tougher to make a great SS preamp. 

[doug s.]

If you like the sound of that additional volume control, have you ever thought about cranking the volume of your volume control to 100% (dime it as they say in the biz) and adding another (third!) volume control to adjust the level?  If an additional volume control (on top of the one in your pre) is better, I would have to think an additional one on top of that (for a total of three!) would be mo better!  You might achieve the elusive 4D!

Like good ol' Einstein once said:
"Everyone has relatives".   

hey!  was he quoting me?  i say that frequently myself.  was i plagiarizing ol' al?  sometimes having relatives is a good thing, other times, not so much.  i guess it's all relative.    we'll see how it goes tomorrow!   

hope your (and everyone else's) turkey kill fest celebrating the genocide of the native american is spectacular!   

doug s.

[doug s.]

I guess I would argue this point.  I'd put the SS preamps I've heard from Vitus Audio and Burmester up against any tube preamplifier.  I own Burmester and have used Vitus and it's pretty amazing stuff.  Granted, it's pretty spendy, but it's not like SS can't be done right.  Also heard some great SS from Luxman and darTZeel too.  I love tubes, but could live happily with either of these choices.

We are just finishing an article on one of the vintage Klyne preamps and it's amazing.  You can usually find one for about $1200.  Again, I'd put it up against anything in tube world.


I just think it's tougher to make a great SS preamp.

you may be right - i have not heard nearly as much gear as you, especially the spendy stuff.  (what about ayre?  their top-line preamps have always piqued my curiosity.) 

i definitely agree w/you that it's harder (and more expensive?) to make a sota s/s preamp...  (tho i bet if the amp/speaker interface allows for it, these new ldr passives will give a lot of pre's a good run for their money...)

doug s.

[jackman]

hey!  was he quoting me?  i say that frequently myself.  was i plagiarizing ol' al?  sometimes having relatives is a good thing, other times, not so much.  i guess it's all relative.    we'll see how it goes tomorrow!   

hope your (and everyone else's) turkey kill fest celebrating the genocide of the native american is spectacular!   

doug s.

Isn't that the theory of relativity?  Either way,  lots of relatives staying at my house tonight so I was reminded.  I don't have to tell you I was just having a bit of fun with you because you already know. 

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!  I'm looking forward to watching football and listening to my system in the man-cave.

Cheers,

Jack

[jackman]

I guess I would argue this point.  I'd put the SS preamps I've heard from Vitus Audio and Burmester up against any tube preamplifier.  I own Burmester and have used Vitus and it's pretty amazing stuff.  Granted, it's pretty spendy, but it's not like SS can't be done right.  Also heard some great SS from Luxman and darTZeel too.  I love tubes, but could live happily with either of these choices.

We are just finishing an article on one of the vintage Klyne preamps and it's amazing.  You can usually find one for about $1200.  Again, I'd put it up against anything in tube world.


I just think it's tougher to make a great SS preamp.

Hi Tone,

Just an FYI.  If you are wondering why people in this circle seem to like tubes, you might want to check the name of  the circle...just sayin.

See you guys later, I'm going to the All Solid State circle to tell them how much I love tubes.   


J