[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

I think the question arises of just how much liquid is on the record....

Believe it or not, since 99% of my many hundreds LPs are dirt cheap recylces from thrift stores, I usually apply pretty thick layer of water onto the tracks to be played to kill all the prick&pop from many worn out tracks. It works bigtime.

c-J

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

.. I think a key thing to remember is that cheap-jack is not pursuing vinyl replay from a "High End" perspective.
Scotty

"Hi End" applies to price & / OR sound quality of equipment used.

(1) For those affordable audiophiles, they don't mind drop a few grands for a phono cartridge with built in 18-carat gold made P/U coils. Or paying well over 100,000 bucks for a power amp to buy good sound.  Thanks to those almighty hi-end audio vendors.

(2) That said, if one knows enough the audio electronic stuffs, one can get good sound very affordably. I believe a cheap jack like yours truly belongs to (2) group.

Though my no-name MM cartridge is dirt cheap, but I managed to get excellent sound out of it via other properly matched gears down the chain.

With this cheapie cartridge WET played, I can hear the distinct tonal characteristics of the tenor (Mario Del Monaco) vs his baritone, as well as the soprano vs her mezzosoprano from the same soundtrack of the LP: Verdi's opera: "Otello", a 1960 Ilalian live-on-stage recording cut in Italy 1980. Very first time ever I can hear such subtle tonal details. WOW!

 LPs 100% made in Italy on opera music are very rare & indeed hard to find today. I was so lucky to run into it while picking up a few recyled LPs from my favourite thrift store. Again only for 75 cents !!!!!!!! Sonically it worths a million, IMO.

I virtually dropped my jaw when I can hear the very subtle details on-stage of such gorgious live recording with real-to-live clapping applause.

So is cheapie stuff can't deliver good sound? I strongly object (provided one knows the business, of course). I again have proven big buck is not the only way to buy good sound - e.g. a cheapie phono cartridge WET playing a cheapie recyled record.

IMO, this is very "Hi End" sound indeed though not for "Hi End" price at all.

c-J

[neobop]

LOL Cheap-Jack, I applaud your efforts to extract satisfying performance from budget components. Once you reach a certain level of fidelity, returns start to diminish with more money spent. Be that as it may, many of us do have more expensive equipment, including phono cartridges. The question is, is this safe for us to try with more expensive stuff ?

OK, we get the picture about your water sports and analogies about gold coils and $100K amps. It still doesn't tell us anything about our cartridges that cost more than $30, and don't have gold coils, and our systems, most of which don't have $100K amps. Lets get real.

How do you clean your records?

Is this regular tap water you use?

Why don't you use a better cartridge, too risky?

Exactly what record player and cartridge are you using?

Saying you have cheap stuff only makes it look like this is too risky for more expensive cartridges. If you can't compare your system performance to more expensive system, what have you proven?
neo

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) Cheap-Jack, I applaud your efforts to extract satisfying performance from budget components.
(2) The question is, is this safe for us to try with more expensive stuff.
(3) How do you clean your records?
(4) Is this regular tap water you use?
(5) Why don't you use a better cartridge, too risky?
(6) Exactly what record player and cartridge are you using?
(7) If you can't compare your system performance to more expensive system, what have you proven?
neo

Answers to your questions:-

(1) My philosophy of HiFi audio is to get the best possible sound at lowest budgets.
     I think I am taking the right directioin. FTI, I am an electrical engineer engaged in 
     the electrical industreis for over 2 decades todate. With such technical             
     background, I still  keep on reading to learn more about audio electronics to help
     me to achieve my goal.
 Now I think I can get most vendors, if not all, out of my way as I can DIY
     build/upgrade most if not all my audio gears to deliver sound to please my picky
     musical oriented ears at LOWEST costs, including phono cartridges. Money 
     can  buy good sounding stuffs, but music oriented ears are needed to really appreciate them. Listening to good music is only way to train up our ears to appreciate good audio. That's why I go vinyl bigtime to train my ears to differentiate music good from bad.
     Without good music listening experience, one can hardly appreciate good audios from bad ones. Money can buy good sound gears, but only musically oriented ears can really appreciate how good are the gears, regardless of price.

(2) Why not? Try WET play with pure distilled water (NO tape water please!) won't
     do any damage to any cartridges. We are dealing with potable water, not any
     corrosive liquids or chemicals. If it does not delivery better sound, stop it & dry
     the wetted LPs up & go back to dry play. No harm done. Don't act like a
     scared child. bud.     

(3) No tape water which is too contaminated with chemicals & micro debris.
     I only use steam distilled ozonated water, available very affordbly in 4-litre
     bottle from my local drug store for as low as 98 cents a bottle on sale.

Other questions to be answered later. I've to go now.

c-J

[cheap-Jack]

(5) Why don't you use a better cartridge, too risky?
(6) Exactly what record player and cartridge are you using?
(7) If you can't compare your system performance to more expensive system, what have you proven?
neo

(5) Wet play won't kill any "better cartridge", pricewise. IMO, Nothing is that
     "risky" in audio to yours truly, who knows enough in audio not to get 
     scared.
     But if my picky ears tell me many very costly cartridges don't sound
     better than my cheapie cartridge mating my humble system at home on playing my same LPs, do I have to worry about replace it with more
     expensive ones? Sound comes first, anything else does not that matter.

(6) Thorens 125II (cir 1970s). My MM cartridge is too cheapie to tell you what
     it is, BUT, but it sounds pretty silky like a hi O/P moving coil.
     ONe thing I have done uniquely to my TT is to place it discretely on a   
     100-lb dead-weight platform I DIYed using 2 hollow concrete blocks on
     steel spikes floating on the wall-to-wall carpetted concrete floor of my
     house basement. Between my TT & the concret block base is a 1/2" ply
     wood floating on the concret block on rubber cushion pads & the whole
     TT is again floated on the plywood board on 4 tuned copper tip-toes.
     So MASS + triple isolations do the trick of helping make my TT+ cartridge
     sound so good.
     IN fact, I borrowed this heavy mass TT base idea from the USD74,700
     Rockport Technologiesw System TT which weighs over 185lbs!!!

(7) I think you are wrong. I always compare my humber home-brew system
     vs other brandname/DIY gears. So far I am still a very happy camper as
     technically & musically I know what I am doing. The last thing I'd do is to
     listen to any salespitches on-line or from any vendors.

c-J

[neobop]

C - J,
Thanks for answering most questions. I agree about the benefits of good set-up and things like turntable isolation. Your approach to wet-play differs from other advocates in the amount of water used. Some others only mist the record rather than use a thick layer of water. Maybe a little less water containing a few drops of a wetting agent would be just as effective? How do you clean your records prior to play?

Some people say they tried wet-play and then those records had to be played wet after that, or they were noisy. Others say that there was no additional noise playing dry, after having been played wet. Any further comments?
neo

[cheap-Jack]

(1) I agree about the benefits of good set-up and things like turntable isolation.
(2) Your approach to wet-play differs from other advocates in the amount of water used. Some others only mist the record rather than use a thick layer of water. Maybe a little less water containing a few drops of a wetting agent would be just as effective?
(3) do you clean your records prior to play?
(4)Some people say they tried wet-play and then those records had to be played wet after that, or they were noisy. Others say that there was no additional noise playing dry, after having been played wet. Any further comments?
neo

(1) TT placement is extremly important, yet so many many vinyl fans tend to overlook. To get the best playback performance from a TT, IMO, it
should be placed away & isolated from the other audio gears. BEST is to place it on a stand of its own, & have another rack or stand to hold all the other equipment. Just like what  I have done for years now .

(2) I use both. I first apply a thick layer of pure water to the tracks to be played with a large painter nylon brush. Then I use a water sprayer to spray more water on dried up sports while the disc is spinnning

(3) I clean only randomly with a record cleaner brush as there is seldom need of pre-cleaning the disc which does not attract dusts any more due to wet playing.

(4) I thought so too. But because I only use pure distilled water, no chemicals ever added. There is no chemical residues deposted in the grooves quite unlike other cleaning fluids always mixed with chemicals. The noisy effect of dry play later is minimal.

I keep on always wet play simply because wet played music sounds so much better than dry play music. Strictly for sonic reason.

As I posted here earlier, my wet played LPs sounded excellent when played DRY on another very costly brandname system in an hi-end audio boutique testing a USD24,900 tube phono-preamp. So this is enough to blow away all those rumours.

c-J

[Zzeonblue]

Setup considerations are critical to playback of vinyl records.  My initial start in the audio business began with turntables, and have seen them from beginning to end - for the most part.  That means from the single motor with stepped armature spindle and interposer wheel to the outer inside of platter to direct-drive, I have not seen or worked with magnetically floated platter.  The weirdest was the linear approach, which tracked with 90 degree perfection to the groove interface, and troubled with lateral friction. My career direction took me on the path of engineering and have worked with radio stations both terrestrial and internet based.

I selected a direct drive, knowing the belt drive systems placed load on the spindle bearing and could generate static if not properly treated or worn belts were used. I also liked the ease with which reverse playing was possible.

At any rate, counter-balance has not been mentioned here often and anti-skating is a very important and key component of accurate tracking/reproduction and needle interface.

The table I selected came with the typical counterbalance of offset weight. Over the years when verifying final test, before playing, I found some issues (more rare) came with a blank side. I bought a few of a select release to use as the skating-rink for validating the balance of anti-skate. 

It was odd, that my counter balance did a fair job, but any setting could not obtain optimum perfection for my taste and test.

I obtained a small 'blank' of brass, and then machined the brass such that when in place on a rotating table, there was absolutely no lateral movement when the needle was placed in the down position. This took into consideration all elements of the arm, cartridge, needle and the gimbals mount. In effect, I created a custom counterweight designed for the system it was compensating. Would love to hear other discussion and thoughts on this subject and the reason for detaining the subject.

Regarding 'wet-playing', I have never tried performance under a layer of water, such as a flood would provide and that seems interesting, but due to the simplistic passion of playing by lowering the tone-arm to pure enjoyment, it sounds much more like a science experiment and not audio enjoyment, to me.

I do use a wet-cleaning method for my record collection, a few thousand, and if not cleaned recently or for a long period of time, clean before playing. This is almost always the case.

For 'older records' only, those which have been owned for decades without previous consideration for playing over immediate gratification, and now have 'surface noise', I do use a 'MIST' of d-ionized distilled water, very lightly sprayed on the vinyl playing surface only and the results are amazing. I NEVER plan to replace most of those older records which have seen not seen a lot of play, been though a large number of moves & environment or/and have not been out of their papers for a long time. I do clean them thoroughly with a wet process, place them in a new vinyl sleeve along side the original paper. If they do not have a mylar/poly cover sleeve, they get one of those too.

Here is the "Difference". After playing misted/wet, I do clean them again a second time with a wet process before storing away. 

For records that are already clean or new, I always play dry. I use one of those retractable camel hair brushes which photographers use for cleaning lenses, believe it is a static master with some kind of strip for dealing with static as well, not sure how effective that is.

One last consideration for those older records when some will exhibit slight pops, which as I have said NEVER plan to replace with new, I use an old-school piece of hardware to 'mask' the pop. It gates the pop through some sore of analog processing and has a variable setting for the amount of noise or degree and severity of pops using a slider. It's an old D.A.E unit, and it gets engaged for those records to clean up and ensure an enjoyable listen.

Great exchange of ideas, thoughts, perspectives, information and investigation being shared & thank you.

well, that's my pennies worth.  - eddie

[Nick B]

I used LencoClean probably 25 years ago. It applies a fluid on the record surface. Made quite an improvement in the sound. See the vinyl engine website. I may still have it in a storage box somewhere......

[simoon]

Many years ago, my friend and I had a product (can't remember what it was) that was a L shaped tube with a soft pad at the end that fed a thin layer of fluid to the record surface, while tracking just ahead of the tonearm.

I believe they had their own fluid. It wasn't just water.

We both thought that records sounded better and quieter while played wet.

I still have many of those LPs in my collection, and they are still dead quiet, played dry. There is no discernable damage to them. Although they did require a thorough cleaning after to remove residue from the wet playing product.

EDIT:

I just emailed my friend, and he says we did not use the fluid that came with the product, only distilled water.