[Doc77]

I just wanted to take a bit of time to post my show impressions.  I don't post on the net much being incredibly busy with my practice.  But since I've been relocated in Toronto for the past month, I've actually had some free time ... and it worked out that I could hop on over to Detroit for the weekend and catch the show. 

First I'll say as I did above, that I own a pair of Vapor Cirrus with the full upgrade package - pretty much identically configured to the ones Bill was running in the Eastern Electric room.  I was typing from my phone before, so couldn't be as concise as I'd like.  But now posting with a real keyboard, I can say better what I meant.  I thought the Cirrus setup in the EE room was just a bit unrefined sounding.  I've been to a lot of shows, I know getting the room setup and sounding proper can be a hit or miss thing, and unfortunately it just didn't come together in that room.  The sound there was a bit lean and made them come forward a bit, which in turn took away the amazingly smooth and refined sound I get with the same speakers at home.  Why?  Who knows, could be any number of variables I assume.  On some tracks however they did still sound amazing as I'm used too.  I don't want to belabor the point, just say that it was unfortunate they didn't put their best foot forward at the show.  Fortunately for those down South, Ryan told me he'll have a pair of Cirrus at the Lone Star Audio Fest next weekend running on BMC gear. 

The speakers Ryan had in the Vapor/BMC room were quite a spread.  There was the Breeze which is his most inexpensive speaker at $1300/pair.  The pair he had at the show was just gorgeous, wrapped in a wonderful reddish burl with all sorts of custom touches.  I'm glad I got to hear these because I need a reasonable priced den speaker that doesn't take up much space.  Ryan told me that somebody called them "taste of Cirrus", and I'd have to agree.  They do all the same things that the Cirrus does, incredible speed and transparency with a crystal clear window into the recording.  They just don't do it quite as well as the Cirrus, but it's a sound I've come to love and for the price I can't think of anything better. 

The other speakers he had were both painted finishes, and both with waveguides.  The Aurora was under $3000/pair, don't remember exact price, and had a dome tweeter in a waveguide and an 8" woofer.  Bass was just mind blowing on these!  They pressurized the room, and you could feel the pressure in your chest at just moderate listening levels.  Most speakers that initially strike you as having great bass will eventually make it clear that they do so through tonal imbalance, by just bumping up the bass to make it more obvious.  That's how my old Montana EPS2's were, and to an extent the Harbeth SHL5's.  Bumped up bass wears off quick, since it washes out midrange and top end nuances, but the Aurora sure sounded balanced.  Yes it didn't have the glorious top end of the RAAL, but did have some serious strong points of it's own.  The other speaker was called Arcus, and was unlike anything I've seen OR heard before.  I expected a rough, unrefined sound, but instead got a very rich and full sound with a fantastic top end as well.  They also sound huge in every way, and project a sense of unlimited dynamics.  The male vocals on these, and things like stand up bass, were just incredible.  Low midrange and mid-bass was powerful and full like I've never heard before.

Other exhibitors also made a strong showing.  Salk as always was showing a wide variety of designs, each one with gorgeous veneers and finish work.  It's obvious why Jim has earned a huge fan following, he builds great stuff.  I think my favorite sound of the bunch was the HT2, to me they were the most integrated and seamless of the bunch.  The SS8 had moments where it sounded a bit out of sync, but the HT2 didn't have that problem.  On every track I heard it kept the same level of transparency and integration with a very nice, articulate midrange.  I didn't care for the monitors all that much, thought they sounded like they were being held back ... like they just couldn't reproduce the peaks to adequately fill the large room, so they seemed to keep a constant volume no matter what was played. 

I think my favorite non-Vapor speaker was the Hawthornes.  Open baffle bass just sounds so natural and effortless.  I don't know if those were a final, production ready design, I should have asked.  They sounded like they have incredible potential, just needing some small final tweaks to get them to 100%.  But 98% of the time I really enjoyed what I heard from them, and I was in the room a long time thanks to the mound of tasty cookies! 

The Selah's were an interesting sound.  It was weird walking around the room and having what I heard remain so constant, pretty cool.  Didn't care at all for the look however, they look like they're about to tip over backward.  Still a very cool design, and nice to see some new stuff in the audio world.  Overall they did sound excellent. 

I read stlrman's comments about the Oddessey's and would have to agree to an extent, although I wouldn't go so far as horrid.  They did have as nice of a top end as I've heard from a dome tweeter, although not in the same league as the RAAL.  My problem with them was what I mentioned above about speakers that first impression is "great bass", often leading to just a bass emphasis.  That was how I felt about them, the bass sounded to me to be a few decibels higher than  the rest of the range, which lead to them sounding tubby at times, and overall washing out a lot of the midrange and treble detail. 

I have more notes written down, but left my folder in the car which is a 20 minute walk from my hotel room.  There were however some member rooms which deserve mention, some were quite nice and obviously put together by talented people. Sometimes it's nice to hang out in a room where nobody is trying to sell you anything. 

In all a really fun event.  RMAF is so big that you get home and kick yourself for missing 20 rooms that you really wanted to hear, but AK Fest I got to spend plenty of time in every room.  And the Monster Mash people provided some interesting people watching after hours ... I got to shake Captain Spaldings hand! 

[JLM]

I am surprised that some of you really enjoyed the Oddessey standmounts.
My wife and I thought they sounded horrid. Boxy,zero tonality, when the bass came in , it sounded like bad explosions in the box. I stopped in the room at least three short times. At 3500? I have bought $500 speakers used, namely the Green Mountain Europas that would blow them out of the water in every single parameter.
Also, The Salk Songtowers sounded really compressed, constrained,and overloaded.
If this is too harsh, sorry.
Todd

I agree overall with your Oddessey (closed/muted highs) & Salk (incredible finishes but had a rough electrical edge) impressions (wanted to like both).  On Sunday most vendors weren't switching speakers much.   

[JLM]

Doc77,

The Vapor guys said that all the speakers/subs were assembled just before the show and so I'm sure not broken in.  By Sunday I thought the Cirrus was most impressive (maybe too much detail - forces my brain to analysis mode) and sounded better later in the day (Sunday).

[hibuckhobby]

I'm with Doc77 on the sound of the Kismet monitors.   I thought the imaging was a bit diffuse, but the only real complaint was that the bass was a bit boomy/bloomy in that room.  Horrible is (for me) too strong a word.  They threw a big stage and pretty much disappeared when the music was playing.  The room might have been a bit big for them.   Interestingly, some of the rooms that sounded the best to me were not the larger rooms.  For the size of the speakers, the Hawthorn room sounded very nice.  Different people, different tastes...that's one of the things that makes the 'fest a lot of fun.
Hibuck....

[DS-21]

The problem with any full array is the cost for drivers (in this case 40 per cabinet).  As the price goes up so does your expectation for good drivers.

Not necessarily.

The Aura-knockoff midwoofers that the PE and Selah CBT's use, with their underhung neo-radial motors, are except for the cheap frames the equal of anything in their displacement class.

[jackman]

I'm still very disappointed that I was not able to attend the show.  A family committment prevented me from joining in on all of the fun.   

Seeing and hearing audio gear in person is probably the best way to make a decision or an assessment regarding which gear sounds best (to each of us and our highly subjective views) but shows can be tricky.   If someone is unfamiliar with a piece of gear or a manufacturer, they seem to grade very strictly, and they are quick and comfortable giving negative feedback.  People often say things like, "those speakers sounded awful", or "speaker XXX totally stomped all over speaker YYY" when they don't know the manufacturer or if they don't have a relationship with the manufacturer.  When their favorite manufacturer has a room that sounds bad, or that others criticize, they are quick to attribute it to bad synergy with associated equipment, bad room or that the speakers were new and did not have time to break in.   Others only make negative comments about brands that are safe to criticize and do not comment negatively on their fanboy brands. 

This is common human nature and I'm not sure people realize they are even doing it.  In many cases, the reasons for not commenting negatively are legitimate.  Many rooms are not suitable for certain pieces (large speakers often sound bad in small rooms and bass is often difficult to control in small rooms, etc.) and manufacturers are often forced to team up with other manufacturers (for budgetary or logistical reasons) whose equipment may not play nice with their stuff.  People are quick to defend their favorites but do not extend the same courtesy to brands they don't know or more mainstream brands that are "safe" to criticize.  There is probably no way around this but I hope people take this into consideration and do not substitute second hand accounts of people who audition gear at shows in place of actual auditions. The negative comments (and positive comments for that matter) are often not even handed. 

Just my opinion...

J

[loki1957]

very well put Jackman

[Big Red Machine]

I'm still very disappointed that I was not able to attend the show.  A family committment prevented me from joining in on all of the fun.   

Seeing and hearing audio gear in person is probably the best way to make a decision or an assessment regarding which gear sounds best (to each of us and our highly subjective views) but shows can be tricky.   If someone is unfamiliar with a piece of gear or a manufacturer, they seem to grade very strictly, and they are quick and comfortable giving negative feedback.  People often say things like, "those speakers sounded awful", or "speaker XXX totally stomped all over speaker YYY" when they don't know the manufacturer or if they don't have a relationship with the manufacturer.  When their favorite manufacturer has a room that sounds bad, or that others criticize, they are quick to attribute it to bad synergy with associated equipment, bad room or that the speakers were new and did not have time to break in.   Others only make negative comments about brands that are safe to criticize and do not comment negatively on their fanboy brands. 

This is common human nature and I'm not sure people realize they are even doing it.  In many cases, the reasons for not commenting negatively are legitimate.  Many rooms are not suitable for certain pieces (large speakers often sound bad in small rooms and bass is often difficult to control in small rooms, etc.) and manufacturers are often forced to team up with other manufacturers (for budgetary or logistical reasons) whose equipment may not play nice with their stuff.  People are quick to defend their favorites but do not extend the same courtesy to brands they don't know or more mainstream brands that are "safe" to criticize.  There is probably no way around this but I hope people take this into consideration and do not substitute second hand accounts of people who audition gear at shows in place of actual auditions. The negative comments (and positive comments for that matter) are often not even handed. 

Just my opinion...

J

Yeah, some of the comments about this room was good and this room was bad is no different than sitting next to someone and they hear it entirely differently.  I thought only 3 rooms had good sound at the whole show and I could sit and listen for hours to those rooms.  My rooms differ greatly from some of the comments already offered here.  And that is how it goes.  You gotta listen for yourself.

[pstrisik]

Good comments Jackman.  In fact, I've largely given up basing reliable decisions on auditions anywhere but in my home.  In a trip to Atlanta last fall, I spent an afternoon in a showroom listening to Vandersteens, Totem, Theil, and others.  Even up to the Vandy big boys.  When I got home and listened to my modest Paradigm Studios, they sounded better than I remembered.  I'm sure most of the speakers I listened to in the store would have outperformed them by far if I had them home, but it didn't seem like it from the auditions.

........Peter

[seadogs1]

Who is the Manufacturer of the subs in the Vapor room?

[TomS]

Who is the Manufacturer of the subs in the Vapor room?

They were Ryan's own prototypes.

[sounddog]

This was my first AK Fest and I really enjoyed it. Here's my 2 cents worth:

I especially liked the Salk room (but then, I would, having just bought the HT2s); I love the clarity, transparency and airiness of the RAAL tweeter. Perhaps for the same reason, I liked the Vapor monitors (which I hadn't heard before) a lot; they seemed well-balanced and with a surprisingly impressive range. I found the soundstage of the Odysseys impressive, especially for such modest-size speakers, although I agree with some that at least in that large room the bass tended to dominate the treble and mid-range. On the other hand, I would like to have heard the large Tyler speaker in a bigger room, where I think it probably would perform more to its potential. Unlike some who've posted here, I did not find anything special about the Hawthorne (especially at its price), nor the array speaker in the Selah room, which sounded quite muddy on a large orchestral piece.

[jtwrace]

They were Ryan's own prototypes.

Details?

[stlrman]

From what I understand about the subs, There are two 8 inch woofers also found in the Cirrus,
and the side ones are passive radiators. I think about a grand for the sub.

[nicksgem10s]

Some of my comments will also be a part of Rich's coverage on hifizine but I want to share my thoughts on AC while people are discussing the show.

There is no question we all experience music and audio systems very differently as you can see throughout this thread.

Here is my take on a few more.

Odyssey / GIK




Klaus (Odyssey) and Bryan (GIK) teamed up together in one of the larger rooms at the show.   While I visited I got to listen to the new Odyssey two way monitors powered by Odyssey Stratos stereo amp and Candela preamp.  This system sounded good with a huge soundstage and had a big sound.  This is no easy feat for a pair of monitors.  It was clear that GIK (Bryan) worked some magic in this setup with his room treatments.  The Odyssey equipment rack was massive and had impressive build quality just like the rest of the components.


Salk / AVA





Jim (Salk) and Frank (AVA) paired up again this year in another large room.  The yet to be named two way monitor speakers use Raal & Scanspeak drivers.  These will reportedly retail for about $3500.  One of the only smaller speakers I have heard that I would not need to use a subwoofer with for music.  They were being driven with a new 225watt AVA stereo amplifier.  They are pictured here next to the flagship three way Soundscape speakers.

[nicksgem10s]

Morningstar Audio / Vapor Audio




Bill (Morningstar Audio) and Ryan (Vapor Audio) combined in this room with Eastern Electric Avant preamp, Dac, Integrated Amp (amp section used) with Vapor Audio Cirrus two way monitors.  This system had a detailed and engaging sound when I visited on Sunday afternoon.  Vapor Audio also had a pair of their Breeze monitors playing with BMC Electronics.  These sounded very refined and musical when I had a chance to hear them on Saturday.  Sadly I do not have a photo of that combination.  Vapor Audio had another couple pairs of speakers that looked very interesting.  Innovative speakers on their way from this new company.  One to watch for in the future.

[nicksgem10s]

Hawthorne Audio




Hawthorne Audio (Darrel and Diana Hawthorne) returned to AKfest with a stunning open baffle system.  Their reference open baffle speakers ($14,000) were driven by a pair of Quicksilver tube monoblock amps and a mac computer based source and Metrum dac.  Their reference speaker features a horn loaded AMT driver combined with their purpose built open baffle midrange and bass drivers. 

This was one of my two favorite systems at the show.  The workmanship of the baffles and the care that went into these speakers were evident.  The results were incredible.  I have to say the finest open baffle speaker system I have heard and by a large margin. 

It might be a good idea to get your speaker order in soon because I believe their waiting list is about to get a lot longer.  Hawthorne Audio also offers other interesting speaker models and caters to the DIY open baffle speaker enthusiast.

[nicksgem10s]

Selah Audio








Rick (Selah Audio) brought a pair of bi-amp speakers he named the Gamechanger ($10-12,000).

Don Keele of Audio Artistry was also in the room explaining the technology behind the design and also his CBT36 kit ($2,000) that is being offered from Parts Express. 

I have heard several line array speakers in the past and not been moved by them. 

I really liked the appearance and size in person.  I understand that some will not understand.  I apologize for the poor phone pictures I posted.  Hopefully there will be some high resolution photos posted here or on Selah audio website to see how high quality the workmanship is on the speakers.

This system was spectacular with all types of music I heard on them over the course of both days.  These were built as a fully active pair with electronic crossover and eq duties being handled by a DEQX.  Multichannel amp and source from Marantz. 

The dynamics I heard on this system were in another league from most systems I have ever experienced.  This system had a jump factor that has to be experienced. 

I have to agree with the name Rick gave them 

Several days later I simply cannot get the sound of this system out of my audio memory.

If I was starting a new reference system these would likely be the speaker I would build around.

-Nick

[shinny]

Todd,
Can you elaborate on your take at the show on the Auroras? Your comment is interesting as the Aurora have dome tweeters, not Raals, if I'm understanding correctly. Thanks.
Steve

[MaxCast]

Hey Nick, it was great meeting you at the show.  I hooked up with TomS Saturday and Nick on Sunday and went into about half the rooms together. 

Before the show John asked if I wanted to do a page on HifiZine with a Word Press app for the iphone.  I said sure.  Nick helped my out on Sunday with pics and commentary.  The app is pretty easy to use but I complicated things by using the app and PC functions...hey it's my first one.       http://rich.hifizine.com/

                     Hats off to Pez and Tyson for their coverage of RMAF.